The Murder of Todd Schumacher | Part 4

In this final episode of The Murder of Todd Schumacher, we interview Lexington Animal Control Lieutenant Jai Hamilton to discuss her investigation of the abuse of Todd’s beloved dog Monroe, as well as whether or not animal abuse is linked to violence against people.  A bunch to learn here, so pull up a chair.

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00:00:01:20 - 00:00:16:00

Jai Hamilton

And there was also a study in 2019 by Shelby MacDonald, and she came out with a study that showed that 75% of battered women who had pets reported that the pet was threatened or intentionally harmed by their partner.

00:00:16:22 - 00:00:17:06

Wendy Lyons

Wow.

00:00:17:18 - 00:00:25:09

Jai Hamilton

And equally disturbing is that the abuse towards the pet was done in front of children 90% of the time.

00:00:25:20 - 00:00:31:00

Wendy Lyons

Warning, The podcast you're about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to the Murder Police podcast, The murder of Todd Schumacher. Part four.

00:01:03:14 - 00:01:32:20

Wendy Lyons

Welcome back, listeners. Thank you so much for joining us on the fourth and final episode of the murder of Todd Schumacher. We were supposed to have Detective Rob Wilson with us this evening as we were recording. And Rob had something unexpected come up. So he is not with us. However, if you recall on the recordings of Todd Schumacher, we learned about Todd's dog, Munro, in the cliffhanger which was placed in the oven.

00:01:33:17 - 00:01:41:17

Wendy Lyons

And our special guest we have with us this evening is Lieutenant Jay Hamilton with the Lexington Animal Control. Thank you, Guy.

00:01:41:23 - 00:01:42:22

Jai Hamilton

Thank you for having me.

00:01:42:22 - 00:02:05:06

Wendy Lyons

For coming here. We we learn about your name. As I said when we were talking about Munro in our our awesome cliffhanger that that Rob did. And I understand you got involved in that. Is that right? Yes, I thought so. Well, before we dive into how you got involved, why don't you tell us a little bit about you and what you do for Lexington and your role?

00:02:05:20 - 00:02:14:06

Jai Hamilton

Yeah. So I am the cruelty investigator for Lexington Animal Control. So I handle all the cruelty calls that come in for Lexington.

00:02:15:00 - 00:02:17:07

Wendy Lyons

And you've been there for quite a while, I understand.

00:02:17:08 - 00:02:18:14

Jai Hamilton

Almost 15 years.

00:02:18:23 - 00:02:20:28

Wendy Lyons

Tell us how you got started with that.

00:02:21:15 - 00:02:45:17

Jai Hamilton

So I graduated from UK in psychology and I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do. But I've always loved animals, so I thought, why not get a job at the animal shelter? So I was originally hired on as an adoption specialist, but then the human resources girl said, I, I have to hire an animal control officer too, and very begrudgingly.

00:02:45:17 - 00:03:03:25

Jai Hamilton

And I said, Well, what's involved in that? And she said, running calls, being out in the public, working with aggressive animals, bite cases, cruelty cases, you'll get dirty. People will yell at you. I don't think you'll like it. But I said, that sounds like a lot of fun. And then that that is where my career started.

00:03:04:02 - 00:03:29:03

Wendy Lyons

And now you're a lieutenant, huh? Awesome. Well, why don't you tell us before we dive into this case? Untied Schumacher, You have a pretty cool hobby that I'm pretty envious of. Why don't you tell us about your hobby, what you like to do in your free time and your awesome dog, Reckless and his Instagram page.

00:03:29:16 - 00:03:55:27

Jai Hamilton

Of course, I love talking about my dog Reckless, so I train personal protection dogs for a company. The company is called Protection Dog Sales and we're located here in Kentucky. The owner of the business is David Harris. He has a lot of videos on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram. Protection Dog sales dot com. In my personal time, I train dogs for him, but I also have my own dog that I've trained for competition.

00:03:56:07 - 00:04:19:17

Jai Hamilton

So I do something called Working Dogs of America and we train in obedience and protection scenarios. So police like scenarios. So I have a lot of cool videos and cute videos. Two of my dog and his Instagram page is reckless, underscore, vomit, underscore Logan, Hoss Logan, N.H. a U.S..

00:04:20:05 - 00:04:25:22

Wendy Lyons

I've noticed those fancy dogs like that have those vines. And that's right, bombs and horses in there.

00:04:25:25 - 00:04:27:05

Jai Hamilton

Very fancy kennel name.

00:04:27:09 - 00:04:39:11

Wendy Lyons

I think it must be. Well, so your dog he he as I've seen in some of those videos that we watched prior to our taping this evening, he really clips down on people.

00:04:39:15 - 00:04:40:02

Jai Hamilton

Oh yeah.

00:04:40:09 - 00:04:42:14

Wendy Lyons

So all that's on command, right?

00:04:42:14 - 00:04:43:16

Jai Hamilton

That's right. But only bad.

00:04:43:16 - 00:04:49:01

Wendy Lyons

Guys. Only bad guys. So he can he can come off of that person as quickly as he went on.

00:04:49:09 - 00:05:09:15

Jai Hamilton

Huh. So we really balance control and power. That's the art of it, right? You have a dog that's super powerful, loves to bite, loves to chase all that pre-draft, but you can reign them in and you can be completely obedient to you. You can have bad guy in a suit running around yelling, but he's going to be completely neutral until I give him the command.

00:05:09:29 - 00:05:10:29

Jai Hamilton

How need?

00:05:11:22 - 00:05:21:16

Wendy Lyons

Well, we certainly need to spend some more time with you. And I'd love to watch Mr. Reckless work some time. Not on me, but I'm not sure what you think.

00:05:21:16 - 00:05:37:23

David Lyons

You should be in a ring. Suit it. But thanks for coming to. And again, Rob was going to be here. He had something come up because he loved working with you on the case and the whole perspective. And again, what we want to talk about is when different parts of government come together to work for the same thing.

00:05:37:23 - 00:05:58:09

David Lyons

And this one kind of came together like that is with the services that Animal Control provided. I don't know that I benefited from that, not just when I was an investigator, but any of the assignments I had to. But tell everybody what animal control, specifically in Lexington. And as you can speak to that, what does animal control do from the simplest thing to the biggest thing?

00:05:58:09 - 00:05:59:03

David Lyons

What's it all about?

00:05:59:18 - 00:06:16:01

Jai Hamilton

Yeah, so we handle all animal related complaints for the city of Lexington. So anything from loose dogs to sick animals, injured animals, animal rescues, bite cases and cruelty cases. So anytime an animal needs help, call animal control.

00:06:16:23 - 00:06:28:13

Wendy Lyons

So the neighbor has a dog out and it's ten below zero and it has no shelter. You handle that. And likewise, it's in the sweltering heat and there's no water in the bowl and it's chained to a tree. You handle that.

00:06:28:15 - 00:06:29:03

Jai Hamilton

Exactly.

00:06:29:03 - 00:06:35:00

Wendy Lyons

So I imagine you probably get some pretty irate owners when you come around talking about, I'm going to take your dog.

00:06:35:19 - 00:06:46:10

Jai Hamilton

Definitely. Yeah. It's one of those professions where no one's ever really happy because a complaint in calls because something horrible is going on. And we weren't there to stop it before we knew about it.

00:06:46:10 - 00:06:52:12

David Lyons

Yeah, the only people that got is firemen. They nailed that up a long time ago and we're still ambiguous about that. Is that. Yeah.

00:06:52:14 - 00:06:53:03

Jai Hamilton

And then.

00:06:53:03 - 00:06:53:25

David Lyons

The heroes.

00:06:54:03 - 00:07:14:18

Jai Hamilton

We get on scene and owners like you're doing too much. So nobody's ever really happy, right? Right. But we do what we can with the laws that we have in Kentucky has not so great laws. There's a lot to be desired. But, you know, there are minimal standards of care. And so we make sure that that's being followed sometimes.

00:07:14:21 - 00:07:22:04

Jai Hamilton

You know, there's lots of situations that I don't think is fair, but I can't necessarily do anything. My hands are tied because our laws are pretty lax.

00:07:22:04 - 00:07:40:00

David Lyons

But that's true with anything you're doing. The criminal justice system, whether it's animal control or law enforcement or anything, is that it? There's a coloring book and you have to stay inside the lines. And that's a great attitude to have, because if you get frustrated with it, you'll wear yourself out. But until things change, you have to work inside and color inside those lines, too.

00:07:40:00 - 00:07:45:00

David Lyons

So it how many people do this and in Lexington for how many people you work with.

00:07:45:07 - 00:07:47:01

Jai Hamilton

So we have 16 officers.

00:07:47:15 - 00:07:48:09

David Lyons

16.

00:07:48:09 - 00:07:48:20

Wendy Lyons

Wow.

00:07:48:21 - 00:08:03:20

David Lyons

Yeah. Think about this. And just for perspective, 16 people, population probably humming around 330,000. Maybe I could be wrong. 280 square miles, I think. I think it's a pretty good sized metropolis. And I'm like 16 people.

00:08:03:29 - 00:08:08:04

Jai Hamilton

So we're 24 hours a day. Oh, every day.

00:08:08:04 - 00:08:13:19

David Lyons

Yeah. So you stay busy, All right? Any idea how many cases you had on a year? Like how many, how many.

00:08:13:19 - 00:08:16:05

Jai Hamilton

Calls? Not off the top of my head.

00:08:16:12 - 00:08:18:00

David Lyons

But there's not a lot of dead time, right?

00:08:18:12 - 00:08:28:23

Jai Hamilton

No, absolutely not. There we go. We have a dispatcher. We're like a mini police department. We have a dispatcher. We have calls pending. We have I mean, I start my shift and I'm called a call to call.

00:08:29:03 - 00:08:29:21

Wendy Lyons

Wow.

00:08:29:21 - 00:08:47:01

David Lyons

Good for you guys. Do excellent work for sure. And again, that's that's what we're coming to on this case is where the it folds over a different things and and get to work. And again Rob spoke highly of you. The only thing we did wrong probably in the last episode is a butchered your first name. And I apologize that I apologized before I wouldn't.

00:08:47:01 - 00:08:54:10

Wendy Lyons

Even embarrass myself. Maybe the listeners don't remember it. Don't you go right on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell our listeners what you call vulnerability.

00:08:54:10 - 00:08:54:28

David Lyons

Thank you for.

00:08:55:00 - 00:09:05:12

Wendy Lyons

No, it's code. You messed up. Exactly. I'll tell the listeners. He called her child was in the T. Yeah. However, I kept saying it starts with a J it's got to be GI. And you said No, I.

00:09:05:12 - 00:09:05:26

David Lyons

Thought it was my.

00:09:05:26 - 00:09:07:20

Wendy Lyons

Friend. Complex Chai US.

00:09:07:21 - 00:09:08:07

David Lyons

Exactly.

00:09:08:15 - 00:09:25:25

Wendy Lyons

J Don't make that sound. And you said, I'm telling you it's Chai Yeah. So I was so embarrassed when I said this evening. Well, actually, I really wasn't asked. Can you tell me how to properly pronounce your name? To which she said, GI. And I looked at you and I think I just smiled. I don't know. Maybe I rolled my eyes.

00:09:25:25 - 00:09:29:00

Wendy Lyons

Probably. But it is gi. Yeah, that's right.

00:09:29:00 - 00:09:35:28

David Lyons

There might have been some weird American sign language with one finger. I can't remember, but it's usually like that anyway. But anyway, we digress.

00:09:35:28 - 00:09:36:09

Wendy Lyons

Yeah.

00:09:36:14 - 00:09:59:14

David Lyons

Yeah. GI So thanks for coming in talking about this stuff because this case again, when he was talking about his and I think I get the listeners attention it's it's bad enough you have a person that's been murdered and I don't think people compare them this way, but a dog gets put in an oven and and that that rattles people just as much as the other.

00:09:59:14 - 00:10:09:24

David Lyons

So can you tell us how you got involved with the case? How did how did you how did you learn of it? And when tell us the ins and outs on that.

00:10:10:05 - 00:10:40:28

Jai Hamilton

So before the murder, we were contacted in September of 2014 by an emergency vet clinic, and they had said that Todd had brought his dog, Monroe, who's a beagle mix to the emergency clinic, because his boyfriend Matt, had put him in the oven. So we went out there and investigated that Monroe was okay. Overall, he had some burns on his pop pads and he had singed hair, but he survived that.

00:10:40:28 - 00:10:52:20

Jai Hamilton

And we also went to the home and took a look at the oven, found what we think is a lot of dog hair inside of the oven. So it's pretty, pretty unique. It's a strange situation.

00:10:53:13 - 00:10:57:14

Wendy Lyons

Yeah. It's not every day you think of putting a pet in an oven.

00:10:57:15 - 00:10:59:07

Jai Hamilton

I would never think of that.

00:10:59:25 - 00:11:10:29

Wendy Lyons

I mean, you have to think what sick person does that? So did you conduct an investigation or did you get to talk to either of the guys about this?

00:11:11:06 - 00:11:35:09

Jai Hamilton

Yeah. So a couple days after Todd and Matt both came into animal control and Todd once said that he wanted to be there for Matt and that this was, you know, a terrible thing that had happened, that he was going to confess to the crime they were going to take whatever punishment that was waiting and that they were going to move forward with their lives together.

00:11:35:19 - 00:11:56:09

Jai Hamilton

So I think he was really in this role of wanting to help him and be a better person. And this was like a low point in Matt's life, right? So they both came in and Todd has a very large, handsome, almost cowboy character. And Matt is this really small, like dark, kind of pale. I would never put the two together.

00:11:57:11 - 00:12:18:16

Jai Hamilton

So we did the interview and Matt did say that he that they had been fighting, they had moved in together, that he had been fighting with Todd a lot, that Todd had went to work. He had made a pizza. And after he'd made the pizza, he put Monroe into a hot oven.

00:12:18:16 - 00:12:20:07

Wendy Lyons

Did he give a reason why?

00:12:21:13 - 00:12:30:03

Jai Hamilton

So he made it very clear that it was nothing that Monroe did. He wasn't mad at Monroe, but he was mad at Todd.

00:12:30:20 - 00:12:36:04

Wendy Lyons

So he's going to pay Todd back and punish Todd by Hard and.

00:12:36:04 - 00:12:39:13

Jai Hamilton

His Monroe, which would ultimately hurt Todd the worst.

00:12:40:00 - 00:12:45:02

David Lyons

Do you see that in domestic violence? Do you see a connection or a nexus in domestic violence cases? With that.

00:12:45:06 - 00:13:12:03

Jai Hamilton

There is definitely a link between the two. There's actually been a lot of studies on this. They found that animal abuse is either predictive or co-occurring with interpersonal violence. And there was also a study in 2019 by Shelby MacDonald, and she came out with a study that showed that 75% of battered women who had pets reported that the pet was threatened or intentionally harmed by their partner.

00:13:12:25 - 00:13:19:21

Jai Hamilton

Wow. And equally disturbing is that the abuse towards the pet was done in front of children 90% of the time.

00:13:20:09 - 00:13:40:20

Wendy Lyons

Wow. So we sort of get at not only the other partner, but the children, because mommy, most often times children love their little pets. And so there's a way to to really stick it to to the children into the family even more so they do it in front of the most innocent of all the children, and not to mention the poor animal.

00:13:41:07 - 00:13:45:00

Jai Hamilton

The more loved the pet is, the more vulnerable it is for abuse.

00:13:45:00 - 00:13:52:14

Wendy Lyons

So it's mostly perhaps a jealousy. I'm going to you love your pet so good. So I'm going to take what your I'm going to hurt what you love the best.

00:13:53:01 - 00:13:53:11

Jai Hamilton

Yeah.

00:13:53:25 - 00:14:19:21

David Lyons

But that's what harm is all about in the end. And again, that force multiplier, doing it in front of the kids, those are overwhelming numbers to those. Those are frightening actually. But and I never put that together. I guess it comes in that category of you don't know if you don't know. And I think it emphasizes why police departments partnered or close with animal control agencies because there we have another indicator, maybe a potential indicator of things in domestic violence.

00:14:19:21 - 00:14:41:01

David Lyons

So if you had a a person who a friend of yours that you suspect could be a victim and they start throwing things in like, well, the other night, he or she did this to Fluffy or Buffy or whatever, that that that might start registering a little bit. I never knew over 70%. I mean, that's crazy. Like almost routine.

00:14:41:01 - 00:14:42:07

David Lyons

Frightening. Frightening.

00:14:42:09 - 00:15:01:07

Jai Hamilton

Yeah. And a lot of people a lot of battered people will delay leaving a situation because they're afraid of what's going to happen to the animals and they use that to control them. If you leave, what do you what do you think I'm going to do with Fluffy? Will he be home when you get home? Right. And so a lot of people won't go to shelters because of that.

00:15:01:07 - 00:15:11:16

Jai Hamilton

But we're lucky here in Lexington that our shelter does what they can to keep families together. So there's different pathways to this, but they try to keep the pets with the victims.

00:15:11:24 - 00:15:20:01

Wendy Lyons

Now, you did tell us earlier prior to the show that there's a law out now. Can you share that with us regarding the IPO's?

00:15:20:01 - 00:15:26:26

Jai Hamilton

Yeah. So last year Kentucky changed their law so that pets could be included in emergency protective orders.

00:15:27:16 - 00:15:28:19

Wendy Lyons

Yeah that's really great.

00:15:29:03 - 00:15:47:22

David Lyons

Huge because when somebody comes down to the courthouse to do one of those one night if that's their concern is that now the people that are taking that EPO in can offer that and say okay there's there's what a great way because that's one of the things we do know where domestic violence on the forefront that was once that control was established it can be economic it can be emotional.

00:15:47:22 - 00:16:08:15

David Lyons

It can be anything as simple as the pet. Is that anything they can use as leverage. And now if you have a way to deal with that, that's great. And with shelters that will, like you said, there's a pathway for the shelter to do that. That's excellent stuff. Very proud of Kentucky for for and that in there anything we can do to make a person feel more comfortable going to an EPA, that's what matter.

00:16:08:15 - 00:16:16:01

Wendy Lyons

Now, I will say on the flip side of that, you know, I learned that their requirements are so bare minimum. It's almost disgusting.

00:16:16:08 - 00:16:16:16

David Lyons

Yeah.

00:16:16:27 - 00:16:31:04

Wendy Lyons

But they require just some little bit of basic food, water and what they consider shelter, which is not what I would often consider a shelter for a pet. And that's kind of sad that there's no stiffer rules or laws on.

00:16:31:04 - 00:16:51:28

David Lyons

Yeah. Talk a little bit about and not to throw Kentucky down because it's probably that way across the country, but talk about that minimalistic approach to the law on when it becomes something that you all can come in as animal control and act, because that's a lot like being frustrated with laws against humans that you're like, you take what before we can do that, talk a little bit about with that.

00:16:51:28 - 00:17:14:11

Jai Hamilton

So I want to say Kentucky's 46 out of 50 when you rank the animal cruelty law. So there is a lot to be desired. The laws are either very basic or so poorly written that they're hard to enforce. So as far as like failure to provide, I mean, it's pretty minimal, right? Food, water, shelter, vet care when needed.

00:17:14:19 - 00:17:23:02

Jai Hamilton

But the majority of our complaints are neglect cases. And then we have, you know, a small percentage that is intentional abuse.

00:17:24:06 - 00:17:49:24

Wendy Lyons

You know, and that is really kind of it's kind of a little bit embarrassing. You said 46 out of 50. That's you know, it is very sad that that people don't take into consideration the preemptive things that happened prior to animal abuse. What is what people are capable of. If you're if you're willing to stick a dog in an oven, obviously, we know what happened to Todd Schumacher.

00:17:49:24 - 00:18:11:26

Wendy Lyons

He was brutally stabbed over 100 times by the same person that with the dog in the oven, you know, And David and I went out just a few months ago, a couple of months ago, to California, and we were amazed at how well we stayed at some very high end Marriotts Inn, Ritz-Carlton, even they people just had their dogs in there.

00:18:11:26 - 00:18:32:21

Wendy Lyons

And we were talking about how great it was that they welcomed them. And and, you know, everyone knows I love children. I own child care centers for a living. But we often talk about how sorry parents, how the dogs are better behaved than the kids. You see these people in there and the dogs are just on like a set stay or they're just down.

00:18:32:21 - 00:18:54:14

Wendy Lyons

I mean, they're maybe wagging to tell, but they're not jumping off the, you know, Ottoman over there like little Bobby is because his mommy thinks that it's so cute and she's applauding him and he's still doing it and driving the rest of us crazy. But we were so happy with how many restaurants and hotels they just had the little dogs in their little bowls.

00:18:54:15 - 00:18:55:04

Wendy Lyons

You know, it was.

00:18:55:23 - 00:19:15:16

David Lyons

It was neat. And hats off because we have a lot of people in California listen to the show and hats off to him. But it was overwhelming. I mean, it was like it was I mean, you would smile because you'd go in one of these hotels or a restaurant. It was like crazy. I had a great aunt when I was growing up that could not turn a stray away and and married.

00:19:15:16 - 00:19:31:03

David Lyons

And she had a little beer joint local called the Five Point Inn. And she always had four or five dogs in there and fans. So hair was blowing. And her thing was, if you don't like the hair found somewhere else, they oh, God, she was that way. You loved her at one time. She had 17 dogs in her house.

00:19:31:03 - 00:19:45:14

David Lyons

And when the neighbors complained, she secretly and that on a download went and got a kennel license. I mean, Mary could not turn somebody away. So to be out there in California, what I think you're seeing and I saw was they really have elevated dogs that were out. Yeah.

00:19:45:18 - 00:19:46:01

Wendy Lyons

Yeah.

00:19:46:01 - 00:20:15:13

David Lyons

Anyway. And so again to see somebody treat that a dog that way in our society is just nuts. And, you know, we we've always talked about I think most people know the connections between animal abuse and, for example, serial killers. That's like textbook. Anybody can pick that up and run and it makes a lot of sense. But this nexus and the domestic violence that's a little bit different because domestic violence is a little bit obviously, it's not like serial killing, but what a neat marker.

00:20:15:16 - 00:20:32:28

David Lyons

I I'm trying to think back on domestic violence cases. I had to see. I can't but we weren't registering it. So, you know, I think for somebody in the game today, that should be something to pay attention to. Yeah, definitely an indicator. But yes, you would love my memory she was amazing loved and.

00:20:32:28 - 00:20:33:26

Wendy Lyons

The dogs in California.

00:20:34:04 - 00:20:35:26

David Lyons

Oh yeah. Hats off everywhere.

00:20:36:07 - 00:20:37:06

Wendy Lyons

Airports, everywhere.

00:20:37:07 - 00:20:38:01

David Lyons

Oh, they've nailed it.

00:20:38:02 - 00:20:53:09

Wendy Lyons

They've never been so happy. Yeah. Riding their tails just so happy. It's it was very nice to see how they welcome them. And then it's kind of embarrassing to know that we're 46 out of 50 and we just provide food, water and what have as shelters considered shelter.

00:20:53:09 - 00:21:14:05

David Lyons

So it's a lot like every other law. IT law. There's always that fine point when when does law become something that's culturally acceptable with morality? Was with a group of people and when does it go into actually even though we all in this room, we agree that it's not enough, but man, there's always that sweet spot that we're trying to make for criminal.

00:21:14:09 - 00:21:36:07

David Lyons

That's it. And when do you take somebody who is just has enough to feed care? I mean, in some cases that probably works well, but it's the people that are probably on the other side of that to benefit from their effort. But that's true in in human law, too, right? Is when you're on the edge and you're like, hmm, not quite, they're not quite there, but what a nexus into that.

00:21:37:21 - 00:21:48:13

David Lyons

So you've got to meet. I shouldn't say that you met the the victim of this crime. Hmm. Unbelievable. Not not knowing anything that was about to come to his life.

00:21:48:20 - 00:22:00:00

Wendy Lyons

Now, I believe you had told us also. Can you share with us how the murder trial of Todd. They went and reference the past with Monroe.

00:22:00:01 - 00:22:15:05

David Lyons

Good. Good question. Because I was going to ask to like how these things because you're ramping up. And at the end, I guess it's pretrial after pretrial After pretrial, right. I mean, that's the story of our life. I know what happened in murder cases. I didn't would never have dreamed in this that we could keep stall on the bus.

00:22:15:05 - 00:22:21:17

David Lyons

But so, okay, it's running through and it's going through and then, boom. How did how did you find out that a murder occurred?

00:22:21:17 - 00:22:42:27

Jai Hamilton

So after the interview, we charged Matt with torture to animals. And that was he pled not guilty in arraignment. And then they have a pretrial date. Pretrial date, Pretrial date. And so this is about eight months in. Right. So no court resolution, but still in the hands of the court. And I was just scrolling through my phone and I saw on the news that there was a murder on the long drive.

00:22:43:02 - 00:22:46:18

Jai Hamilton

And I instantly knew that these were Monroe's people.

00:22:47:15 - 00:23:00:19

Wendy Lyons

You just knew. So so when that happened, I believe you had said that they couldn't look into what had happened prior with Monroe. They wouldn't bring that end to the murder.

00:23:00:25 - 00:23:20:07

Jai Hamilton

Yeah, right. So that was so surprising to me because that was 2015. I had never been to a jury trial. I had never testified. I was just going to watch to see the process. Right. Because we were involved in it to some degree. And when I heard that they wouldn't allow any testimony about Monroe, I couldn't believe it.

00:23:20:27 - 00:23:24:17

Jai Hamilton

Because to me, that's a pattern of behavior. Yes, that's a character thing.

00:23:24:24 - 00:23:44:09

Wendy Lyons

That's right. And it led up to it because that was a way of domestic abusing Todd by means of his dog until it escalated that he ultimately killed him. Yeah. So you would think why would you not look into the past history of this person? Yeah, because that was, I think, a precursor to what was about to happen.

00:23:44:09 - 00:23:45:12

Jai Hamilton

I completely agree.

00:23:45:17 - 00:23:49:21

David Lyons

And what I think you said you were with Rob Wilson. What Rob tell you about that?

00:23:49:25 - 00:23:51:03

Jai Hamilton

Because that. That's normal.

00:23:51:09 - 00:23:51:29

David Lyons

Yes. Yeah.

00:23:52:00 - 00:23:52:15

Wendy Lyons

Wow.

00:23:53:03 - 00:23:53:10

Jai Hamilton

Well.

00:23:54:03 - 00:24:15:00

David Lyons

Prejudicial stuff. I mean, it's a it's a tough thing. And again, just like we talked about, you have to have the coloring book and kind of live. And even what's frustrating is that it's really tough. It's the whole concept of what a fair trial is based on. That's the tricky part about this business is stomaching that is knowing and not being able to say that.

00:24:15:00 - 00:24:35:05

David Lyons

And I can take it a step further. It's so, so like when you testify, it's like a landmine. And and I've seen it happen for if if, if you testified in a murder trial, if, for example, Rob or any of the other investigators had just mentioned that mistrial, it would have been fast. It would have been objection in it.

00:24:35:05 - 00:24:56:10

David Lyons

Why would it come down way? Because I've even seen, for example, you're going to have a murder suspect on trial patrol, picks him up on a warrant. Just a warrant. And I saw it happen one time and if the officer gets on her and some defense attorneys, they're gifted about trying to walk into this. If the officer drops their garden, they say, well, how did you encounter him?

00:24:56:10 - 00:25:13:29

David Lyons

And they said, well, he had this misdemeanor warrant. Objection, bond, New trial. Same thing goes when when people talk about Miranda, you have the right to say anything. You say will be used against in a court of law. That's not true. Is that. But by the time the jury gets that statement that we make, they're going to redact it.

00:25:14:07 - 00:25:26:21

David Lyons

Because if the person says, well, I was in jail three times, that goes away. You see what I'm saying? So that's hard. Yeah, that's hard in any end. You're right. Is now we're looking back. We know that's a prior preceptor that. Yeah.

00:25:26:24 - 00:25:31:01

Jai Hamilton

And if the jury would have known, I believe there would have been a very different outcome.

00:25:31:02 - 00:25:49:13

David Lyons

Exactly. Yeah. Because that Rob in the last episode is that we respect the system. But every now and then, like he said, that jury got it wrong. And I've seen it before too, is he said that they bought his act and you may be able speak to that about the idea of how convincing a guy like that is when you're interfering.

00:25:49:13 - 00:25:50:26

David Lyons

Mom, put any dog in the oven.

00:25:50:26 - 00:26:11:24

Jai Hamilton

Yeah. So they really sold this idea of it being an isolated incident. So Matt, although he admitted to what he had done, said that he was drunk, he had come off his meds, that he had a mental break, that this happened, but he had went to seek help after he had checked himself into the reg, which is the mental health facility here.

00:26:12:05 - 00:26:16:13

Jai Hamilton

And he got put on different meds, he went to counseling and that this was an isolated incident.

00:26:16:13 - 00:26:17:16

Wendy Lyons

And he's all better now.

00:26:17:17 - 00:26:23:22

Jai Hamilton

Yeah, he's a good person. He loves the animals. It won't happen again. And Todd wanted to believe in the good in him.

00:26:24:06 - 00:26:25:15

David Lyons

Hmm.

00:26:25:15 - 00:26:34:23

Wendy Lyons

Like most domestic victims. Yeah. They want to believe that something, you know, they're going to change. Yeah, it's going to be different this time. They really want to believe that.

00:26:34:28 - 00:26:35:18

David Lyons

How sad.

00:26:35:21 - 00:26:52:10

Wendy Lyons

And it is very sad because it makes you wonder, were there any episodes after you came in contact with Todd and Matt or had it happened prior? But maybe there were no injuries on Monroe. Maybe it was a kicking when Todd wasn't around or threatening.

00:26:52:17 - 00:27:12:19

Jai Hamilton

So you're right there probably was other things and we just don't know about it. I will say that I found out from the family that after Todd was found murdered, the family had told me that Monroe had gone missing several days before the murder. They suspect that there was an argument about where is Monroe, what happened to Monroe.

00:27:13:12 - 00:27:16:28

Jai Hamilton

They believe that Matt killed Monroe, and we never did find Monroe after.

00:27:17:07 - 00:27:19:19

Wendy Lyons

Wow. Wow.

00:27:19:19 - 00:27:22:17

David Lyons

How anybody would put him in a hot oven. Yeah, would.

00:27:22:17 - 00:27:51:22

Wendy Lyons

Probably. Oh, I'm sure. And, you know, who knows? Maybe that's what escalated to the fight, as we know. You know, with some of the victims, it's, you know, when they finally say they're leaving, maybe maybe it escalated over Monroe and it just got out of hand. Who knows? Of course, we'll never know. But that's so sad. That and, you know, just to think that Todd was probably looking so hard for Monroe, just hoping maybe out driving and searching, who knows?

00:27:52:06 - 00:28:01:25

Wendy Lyons

But to know that one person can take that Matt in this case and and use that against. Yeah, against Todd Yeah.

00:28:01:25 - 00:28:08:07

Jai Hamilton

Animals are used to control, manipulate and punish victims. And they're really the perfect victim.

00:28:08:26 - 00:28:09:27

Wendy Lyons

Right? Because they can't talk.

00:28:09:27 - 00:28:11:11

Jai Hamilton

They can't tell anyone what happened.

00:28:11:21 - 00:28:14:13

Wendy Lyons

And most dogs are always happy to see you, even if you're.

00:28:14:17 - 00:28:21:20

Jai Hamilton

Even if you are an abuser. We've had dogs being who were intentionally abused by their owner and they still love them.

00:28:21:26 - 00:28:40:19

David Lyons

Yeah, their unconditional love. It might be the only time that really exist on a planet. Well, they've got that right for sure, you know. But we have a miniature horse you met tonight, Polly. There was abused incredibly. And. And it's taken a few years to get her to let us catch her and touch her and everything just because of that, that abuse of that trust.

00:28:41:06 - 00:29:04:02

David Lyons

But yeah, so it, it, so it it's frustrating, right? It do you know, let me first say this is for the listeners that are interested in crime and the criminal justice system is go to a jury trial. Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to say you should spend your vacation there because it would probably take a vacation. But if people really want to know, go sit one.

00:29:04:06 - 00:29:13:05

David Lyons

Everything from opening from jury selection to opening arguments all the way to closing and in, learn how that works. It's actually pretty fascinating. Yeah. Yeah.

00:29:13:11 - 00:29:35:02

Wendy Lyons

Well, and likewise for people who like me to realize people like Jai's position existed. If a person's has a love for animals like you do and wants to protect them, how does a person do what you do? Do they just go apply at a shelter? How's a person Do your job?

00:29:35:02 - 00:30:00:21

Jai Hamilton

Well, as far as like emotionally, I it can be hard. There's going to be like good days and bad days. And I can't save every single dog. I can't get every animal out of a bad situation. So if I look at it as like an individual, I can say this animal's life, then it means something. But when I think of it as a whole, it's like you're you're spinning your wheels all the time, right?

00:30:01:27 - 00:30:18:06

Jai Hamilton

But I have really enjoyed seeking justice for the those who can't speak for themselves. And that is really propelled me. And so if I can hold somebody accountable for something they thought they could get away with because it's just an animal, then that is really my driving force behind what I do.

00:30:19:00 - 00:30:28:24

Wendy Lyons

So if a person wants to do your job is their college for it is with you, just go to your humane or animal control and say, I'd love to be an animal control officer.

00:30:28:24 - 00:30:42:07

Jai Hamilton

Yeah, so there's different pathways to it. There are several national schools that you can take. A lot of animal controls don't require it. We do a lot of training on the job, but you know, it's all different depending on where you live.

00:30:42:07 - 00:31:05:01

David Lyons

Cool stuff, just because I think a lot of people probably are interested in that because I think if you my daughter Brooke, for example, left banking last year and got a job at a vet clinic and she loves animals that much. So it's one of those things that draws you in and takes care of it. And again, my and Mary, 17 dogs in a house that was a zoo, literally.

00:31:05:08 - 00:31:13:26

David Lyons

It it was interesting to watch that inside that restaurant, too. And she always had a handful of dogs. She loved her. You know, her. You and I ate there.

00:31:14:08 - 00:31:15:19

Wendy Lyons

Which is eating there, presumably.

00:31:15:20 - 00:31:16:16

David Lyons

Because you hate her.

00:31:16:17 - 00:31:17:26

Wendy Lyons

I'm a little peculiar about here.

00:31:17:27 - 00:31:37:12

David Lyons

Oh, there was hair. You had hamburger or something. You want cheese or you want hair? Probably get both, you know, because it was just the way it was. But hey, Mary loved him. And you said something to you about how it's it's tough. But I think what you said, too, is understanding what your role is, what your limitations are, and is the resiliency aspect, because it's true no matter what.

00:31:37:12 - 00:31:44:12

David Lyons

If you do anything in the investigative side, you're not going to save the world. It's little pieces at a time, right? Yeah, it's one step.

00:31:44:19 - 00:32:02:21

Jai Hamilton

I have had so many cases where I in my heart, I know somebody did this, but I can't get all those puzzle pieces to fall together. But then you have the cases where it does, and that is so exciting to be on that pathway and something unlocks. Another thing and all of a sudden you have a great case.

00:32:03:04 - 00:32:05:01

Jai Hamilton

So that is, that is something that's really.

00:32:05:12 - 00:32:28:01

Wendy Lyons

Bring us together. If a person has their animal removed from for being abused, are there any laws or what do you do if somebody says, hey, they own dogs again and they're abusing again? Are there any laws that maybe says you can't own dogs anymore? Don't let us find out. You owning like a felon with a handgun. Of course they're going to carry on.

00:32:28:01 - 00:32:33:29

Wendy Lyons

They aren't supposed to. But are there laws on behalf of animals that say you won't own another one?

00:32:34:12 - 00:32:56:18

Jai Hamilton

That's a really great question. So going back to Kentucky, being a terrible state for the animals, we do not have anything in our laws with the exception of the bestiality case that's very well written that prohibits somebody from an animal abuser from owning animals. So even if it goes to a jury trial, the options are jail time or funds.

00:32:57:02 - 00:32:58:03

Wendy Lyons

But you can own again.

00:32:58:11 - 00:33:02:26

Jai Hamilton

But you can own the same in will you abused. There's nothing that says you can't have an animal back.

00:33:03:09 - 00:33:04:00

Wendy Lyons

Wow.

00:33:04:14 - 00:33:21:23

Jai Hamilton

Yeah. No. Sometimes we can reach an agreement and a plea deal, but that's only two years. And a lot of times people get around that for the wording. Like they'll say only service dogs, right? Or I don't only dogs. These my roommate's dogs. Okay. So there's a lot of ways around the wording.

00:33:21:27 - 00:33:30:21

David Lyons

Yeah. So maybe people need to talk to their legislators. I mean, really, this is that thing that when somebody is running for election, Hey, by the way, what would you think about this?

00:33:30:21 - 00:33:39:15

Jai Hamilton

And there's they are elected officials. So you call them and you tell them that these issues are important to me. They're going to listen to you. They want to be reelected.

00:33:40:02 - 00:33:55:01

Wendy Lyons

Sure. Now, you did mention something that I didn't want is to have to talk about on here. But since you've mentioned it, because we have you all, have you ever worked a case on that?

00:33:55:15 - 00:34:00:10

Jai Hamilton

We've had two recent cases involving allegations of bestiality.

00:34:01:03 - 00:34:09:09

Wendy Lyons

Wow. So what are the laws on that? I mean, what have you has it been prosecuted as anything been done?

00:34:09:09 - 00:34:29:21

Jai Hamilton

So in Kentucky? Yes, in Lexington, not yet. We actually had a case where we just submitted some DNA samples to the Casper lab, which is really exciting for us because that will be the first case that we've ever had a sample submitted. So we'll see when that comes back. You know, it might open the case up. We might get a conviction out of that.

00:34:29:25 - 00:34:31:08

David Lyons

We have to stay in touch on that.

00:34:31:10 - 00:34:32:11

Wendy Lyons

Because sadly, this.

00:34:32:13 - 00:34:33:23

David Lyons

Will bring Marcy in.

00:34:34:06 - 00:34:35:23

Wendy Lyons

Because most of the DNA.

00:34:35:28 - 00:34:38:04

Jai Hamilton

Yeah, and I know Marcy, I've been in contact.

00:34:38:05 - 00:34:38:29

David Lyons

Oh, she's great.

00:34:38:29 - 00:34:41:17

Jai Hamilton

She's great, but she has no control conference.

00:34:41:25 - 00:34:43:12

David Lyons

There we go. And she's coming back here.

00:34:43:12 - 00:34:44:14

Jai Hamilton

And I was amazed.

00:34:44:22 - 00:34:48:08

David Lyons

She's a brilliant well, all of them up there. I just can't say enough. Good.

00:34:48:09 - 00:34:49:10

Wendy Lyons

I'll leave Laura out.

00:34:49:12 - 00:34:50:11

David Lyons

No, that's what I'm saying.

00:34:50:19 - 00:34:51:22

Jai Hamilton

I don't know anyone else.

00:34:51:22 - 00:34:52:26

David Lyons

I know we.

00:34:52:26 - 00:34:53:10

Wendy Lyons

Only know this.

00:34:53:13 - 00:34:59:14

David Lyons

But, I mean, me and Laura came up together from back in the day, so. Yes But it's an amazing group of people.

00:34:59:21 - 00:35:05:01

Wendy Lyons

Now, if that person doesn't get charged, they could get their dog back, even though you highly suspect it.

00:35:05:12 - 00:35:23:21

Jai Hamilton

So bestiality is the exception because it is a very well-written law and it's a newer law. Okay. But every other law in Kentucky, there's no provisions for like, you know, keeping someone away from the animal they abused. Not only animals, it's literally just jail time and or a Oregon.

00:35:24:06 - 00:35:36:20

David Lyons

Well, maybe it could be a start. Sometimes you have to have that. Those things in front Canada boilerplate for that maybe it'll be the start for the legislators to look at because they'd be good to see. So it's just bizarre that we're talking about DNA.

00:35:37:09 - 00:35:38:23

Wendy Lyons

With the dog. Look, we're.

00:35:39:12 - 00:35:41:28

David Lyons

Looking for human DNA. Yeah, okay.

00:35:42:03 - 00:35:47:25

Wendy Lyons

I'm sorry, listeners, but that's downright disgusting, don't you? That's. Yeah, that's awful. Yeah, that's awful.

00:35:47:29 - 00:35:57:10

Jai Hamilton

It is. Yeah. And they there is a documented link between people who have sex with animals and people who are into child sex crimes.

00:35:58:02 - 00:36:20:26

Wendy Lyons

I'm not surprised if you're going to be sick enough to do it too. One, I'd say you're sick enough to do it the other. DV There's just no exceptions or anything people can say that will change my mind about that. And as our listeners know, I usually keep my opinions to myself regarding a lot of things, but the children and the bestiality, I'm sorry, that's that's there's no no use for that.

00:36:20:26 - 00:36:21:20

Wendy Lyons

That's disgusting.

00:36:21:20 - 00:36:23:05

Jai Hamilton

No, I agree for sure.

00:36:23:28 - 00:36:39:12

David Lyons

So it is far as we work through the case and in and again the frustration I'm not being will bring it in and I guess it couldn't come up in sentencing either. I mean that that's a well because it's because he didn't plea all rights right. Had he had had the case closed.

00:36:40:24 - 00:36:49:01

Jai Hamilton

So the case got taken from a murder to manslaughter. Gotcha. And then he got. Oh, you're talking about the animal cruelty.

00:36:49:01 - 00:36:50:28

David Lyons

Yeah, but it all ties in together, I think.

00:36:50:28 - 00:36:53:14

Jai Hamilton

Yeah. And then he got two years for manslaughter.

00:36:53:17 - 00:36:53:28

David Lyons

Got.

00:36:54:29 - 00:36:58:07

Jai Hamilton

Him for I'm sorry. He I think it was sentenced to ten, but he only served two.

00:36:58:07 - 00:36:59:19

David Lyons

Sure, that would be about right.

00:36:59:19 - 00:37:10:02

Jai Hamilton

And then as far as the animal case, they just lumped the animal case on top of the murder case. So essentially he took a guilty plea, but they just like combined it with his jail time. He had already served.

00:37:10:05 - 00:37:10:29

Wendy Lyons

Oh, he's out.

00:37:11:10 - 00:37:14:03

David Lyons

Yeah, that's what Rob said. He's probably out. He's probably.

00:37:14:03 - 00:37:14:21

Jai Hamilton

Out now.

00:37:14:21 - 00:37:15:21

Wendy Lyons

Yeah, he's out.

00:37:16:06 - 00:37:20:27

David Lyons

Yeah, That's good. Yeah, that's the reality of the game. Yeah. I think I'm right.

00:37:20:27 - 00:37:21:17

Wendy Lyons

Here in our jail, and.

00:37:21:28 - 00:37:26:28

David Lyons

I have I have very few people that I worked that are still in a penitentiary. Very few.

00:37:26:28 - 00:37:40:26

Wendy Lyons

So you help me understand this poor man was stabbed over 100 times and his dog was put in an oven and probably killed by the same person he served just a little handful of years.

00:37:41:09 - 00:37:41:24

Jai Hamilton

Correct.

00:37:43:02 - 00:37:45:09

Wendy Lyons

Does nobody see the problem with this? No.

00:37:45:21 - 00:38:10:01

David Lyons

No. Everybody sees the problem with that. It but the thing is, is it proper? And we probably could have researched it maybe I'll put some on a website but credit time served crediting custody writing trial. Yeah all of that falls into that and everything but it's like Rob said is that Rob and it's not common of people do this but Rob said that he believes the jury got it wrong and he Borras act yeah they they they were buffoons and and swayed.

00:38:10:01 - 00:38:16:20

Wendy Lyons

Well and what a slap in the face it is to this man's family There we go. How insulting.

00:38:16:20 - 00:38:21:12

Jai Hamilton

They I sat next to them as well at the trial and they were devastated sure.

00:38:21:20 - 00:38:31:19

David Lyons

Like and reasonable in the community again that there's the community should be devastated. The community should be mad and communities need to start expecting more.

00:38:31:22 - 00:38:49:09

Wendy Lyons

Well, and not only that, because if he's a great master manipulator and he meets another person and involves in a relationship with them, he's likely going to explain his way of or not tell. And then there's potentially more victims, just like all these tech abusers are. They got a next victim.

00:38:49:15 - 00:39:12:14

David Lyons

Become domestic abusers. Once somebody can take another person's life and rest easy with it taken, the second, third, fourth and fifth and sixth will mean nothing to them. Right. If that did that and I'm not going out on soapbox about it, but absent real mental health issues, I mean real diagnosed mental health issues, that is being in a yang and if you're capable of it, you are just flat out capable right.

00:39:12:23 - 00:39:32:04

David Lyons

You don't look at it like you not do you now would die if we had to do that. Even if we were defending ourselves, it would crush us inside. People like that. When that silicone switch goes that that's not even an issue. Sleeps well with it, Sleeps well with it. It's people out there know people should be mad.

00:39:32:04 - 00:39:49:10

David Lyons

They should be mad. They should be mad that that we starting with things like animal abuse, I think people should be upset. The idea that we look at that lightly. Well, no, now we're starting to get really good data. You shouldn't have had to have it, but we've got data that shows that that's a precursor to other violent behavior.

00:39:49:10 - 00:40:14:07

David Lyons

What's comment? If you can do that to an animal, then then you can do that to a human and vice versa. So, yeah, those are the big things that the world's I mean, we're living in a time right now where people are killing or attempting to kill people at rates that have never happened before at younger ages. But that's because we don't have any consequence and we have we have a lack of morality.

00:40:14:09 - 00:40:21:02

Wendy Lyons

Well, when you're serving two years for stabbing someone over a hundred times and putting a dog in an oven, there's no consequence.

00:40:21:02 - 00:40:21:14

David Lyons

No.

00:40:21:29 - 00:40:23:17

Wendy Lyons

I mean, there is You could do life.

00:40:23:17 - 00:40:33:08

David Lyons

Life and Kentucky for years has been always kind of just anecdotally, we looked at seven years of where you get a life sentence and just life, seven years maybe.

00:40:33:19 - 00:40:51:01

Jai Hamilton

I mean you've heard of people saying that that that when things go to the court system, it's a slap on the wrist. Yeah. So that's a frustration that I have. And I know that the police officers. Sure. Well, it's not just animal cases, but when you think of the crime committed and what the sentence is, is really justice.

00:40:51:28 - 00:40:56:14

David Lyons

That there we go. The big question, because that is the key word, justice. I want justice.

00:40:56:14 - 00:40:58:08

Jai Hamilton

But did we do enough for the victim?

00:40:58:13 - 00:41:02:23

Wendy Lyons

Well, I would venture to say that Todd Schumacher's family did not feel it was.

00:41:03:03 - 00:41:31:02

David Lyons

Well, now and they got they got they really got shorted. God bless them. They got shorted it. It's horrible. It it just it's when you see it drop and fail like that, it it takes a little bit out of you and I talked about in one of those episodes watching some of the trials I had even. But even if people didn't die and looking over and thinking, what made you think that you could come back so far away from what actually happened here when it was all proven?

00:41:31:02 - 00:41:59:27

David Lyons

It's just crazy nuts it and when people say the justice system fails, I listen. If it goes to a jury trial, that's like 6 to 12 people that fail. Let's be honest, If it's in district court, it's six, it's 12. And that's the problem, is that God, if if people would just walk into a jury room and be more guarded and understand that the people, they're going to be evaluating, they're they're not what you see in that room.

00:42:00:11 - 00:42:22:19

David Lyons

You know, you described Matt really well when you said he was darkening with pasty and end in and you juxtaposed him against Todd is I can guarantee you when he went to trial, he never had that impression. I mean, Mitch, you saw him in the moment and that and that's again where people don't that that's what they don't get.

00:42:22:19 - 00:42:27:14

David Lyons

I think that's why body worn camera is so important, is that now juries are finally seeing people.

00:42:27:17 - 00:42:28:06

Jai Hamilton

Who they act.

00:42:28:09 - 00:42:28:27

Wendy Lyons

Yes.

00:42:29:05 - 00:42:31:12

Jai Hamilton

They actually are not the person.

00:42:31:14 - 00:42:40:07

David Lyons

That says, yeah, take the suit off in the Bible and make them buck naked, graze like a hog. Big, screaming like they're crazy. And that's what everybody was dealing with.

00:42:40:08 - 00:42:47:15

Jai Hamilton

Rob was talking about that he played the victim really well. Yeah. And that's what he did with us. Well, that's what did on the stand when.

00:42:47:15 - 00:42:57:23

Wendy Lyons

Again, I think it's back to that manipulating people. I think he may be felt like if he could convince you all that he was so remorseful and he would never because he's better now.

00:42:57:23 - 00:43:06:21

Jai Hamilton

So I wouldn't say he was remorseful because he never did show he would inept, never did cry, shed a tear or say sorry, nothing like that. During the interview.

00:43:06:21 - 00:43:28:05

David Lyons

Perfect remorse. Wow, they're not I've said it a thousand times. They're not capable. If you're capable of remorse, you probably won't go there where you're going to be, right? It's not in them and that's it. That's what people don't get, is that you'll have people say, Oh, I'd rather him spend the life in jail so that they think about the now they don't they think about what they did wrong.

00:43:28:21 - 00:43:38:19

David Lyons

And they probably get kind of kinky thinking about the things they did in all candor. And that's that's where people get it wrong, too, is that it? No, they're not remorseful. Is that.

00:43:38:27 - 00:44:04:22

Wendy Lyons

Well, I think ultimately what it sends the message to that person, Todd, in this, I'm sorry, Robin, I am sorry. Not you, Rob Matt in this case or any other person who's like that, who does something as heinous is if there's so little consequence for it, is it I mean, why not do it again? Because you're going to probably serve a couple more years again.

00:44:04:22 - 00:44:05:02

Wendy Lyons

Well, that's.

00:44:05:03 - 00:44:30:11

David Lyons

Maybe that's a decision. You know, we've talked about heaven and, you know, having a Commonwealth attorney and maybe some other people and and some of the best defense attorneys in town that I love and everything is that those are huge social issues we probably got to iron out is that if spies evaluate in a cookie jar in the cookie jars, you know, full of cookies and you don't get into a lot of trouble than oof crazy stuff, we can't solve all the problems tonight.

00:44:30:11 - 00:44:31:28

David Lyons

But these are these are valid question.

00:44:31:28 - 00:44:33:01

Wendy Lyons

Well, sure, try it.

00:44:33:01 - 00:44:49:04

David Lyons

But but you know what's neat is you see it. I don't look at animal abuse as being really, truly a lesser level than the other. It's human behavior. It's the justice system that we have play and work, and we all have to follow those same rules, which I think that's why you always mark as beautiful over to animal control.

00:44:49:18 - 00:45:08:17

David Lyons

And the thing is, is that what's on the other side of it is the things out of our control juries, things like that in the court system sometimes. So it good stuff. I had it. Thanks for trying. Sure. I mean, there's no doubt about that. As we kind of wrap up before we fold up and.

00:45:08:17 - 00:45:10:26

Wendy Lyons

Everything, we had another question we was going to ask her.

00:45:11:23 - 00:45:12:05

David Lyons

Tell me.

00:45:12:22 - 00:45:13:22

Wendy Lyons

I'll tell her. Yes.

00:45:14:09 - 00:45:14:25

David Lyons

Please do.

00:45:15:08 - 00:45:31:23

Wendy Lyons

What happens to pets when someone passes? When when an owner passes away? Oh, you will take care of those. Yeah. So homing those or what do you do if you are informed by the police that this owner has, you know, three puppies there? What do you do with that?

00:45:32:11 - 00:45:43:10

Jai Hamilton

We So if the police officer calls and needs assistance, we always go help in those kind of cases. We would bring them into the shelter and hold them for the next of kin.

00:45:43:10 - 00:45:56:04

David Lyons

Okay, Good question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I doubt I completely forgot about that because it's where you is like and again, there we are is that you have some I don't have like a relative right there. What happens to the dog as a cat.

00:45:56:05 - 00:46:09:03

Wendy Lyons

Well you know you always see on there's some animal sights in Oman and they'll try to adopt a ferret and they'll say these things live 70 years. So you need to have a backup plan. Yeah, for sure. In case. In case the bird outlives you.

00:46:09:03 - 00:46:13:12

Jai Hamilton

And then they. They pick up on what you say and they start cussing.

00:46:13:12 - 00:46:14:28

David Lyons

Yes, there was a pet shop.

00:46:14:28 - 00:46:17:01

Jai Hamilton

Very careful what you say in front of a parent.

00:46:17:06 - 00:46:39:25

David Lyons

Yeah, it was funny. You got to go on too many tangents, but growing up Louisville, we lived in Crescent Hill and in Saint Matthew's there was Hallas pet Shop and there was a huge parrot in there and we used to blame the kids that went to Trinity High School, but that would cuss like a sailor. And it was their whole thing was, Do I have time to go in a handler's pet shop and get this parrot angry enough to cost me out?

00:46:39:25 - 00:46:58:04

David Lyons

That was a stupid thing. Yeah, that just you brought that up. But yeah, the idea that there we go. That there's the brass tacks of death investigation. One of those things that people don't think about. You go into her home and unfortunately, some guys lost their life regardless of how and a pets there. How do we take care of the pets?

00:46:58:06 - 00:47:16:17

David Lyons

Right. And and I know that officers took that to heart. That's why they called animal control is you know it's it's like while you know somebody lost their life but there I had officer spend a lot of time waiting for you all to come because they were like we've got to home this dog or this cat or this.

00:47:16:18 - 00:47:18:02

Wendy Lyons

You can't just leave it there. No.

00:47:18:12 - 00:47:38:13

David Lyons

Just the care. You know that That's a neat things. What a great service, right? What a great services that is that people have that. So it let me ask you this, because we talked about I think you work for Wonderful boss. As far as your your dog training goes, if people really love animals GI, how can they help?

00:47:38:16 - 00:47:40:11

David Lyons

What what are some things they can do to help?

00:47:41:06 - 00:47:54:27

Jai Hamilton

Yeah. So I always recommend that people donate to their local humane society or some sort of nonprofit that helps animals in Lexington, we have the Lexington Humane Society. And what was the second part of your question?

00:47:55:28 - 00:47:59:00

David Lyons

That's a good question.

00:47:59:00 - 00:48:06:09

Wendy Lyons

It you both look at it. Yeah. Now really feel the pressure. Yeah. What can they do to help? You said donate to your local shelters.

00:48:06:18 - 00:48:12:18

Jai Hamilton

Second thing I was going to say is fostering your adopt Foster.

00:48:13:04 - 00:48:20:01

Wendy Lyons

And there's so many sites out there that will say they're looking for Foster. And then some get to have Foster to adopt you. Yeah, that little pet.

00:48:20:13 - 00:48:35:22

Jai Hamilton

Yeah. I mean, especially right now, every shelter is full. This is a nationwide problem. So after COVID hit, people are they can't afford their animals anymore. They're breeding out of control. So every place is full. So the more people can foster, the more lives can be saved.

00:48:35:28 - 00:48:40:23

David Lyons

Great. Yeah. And most places have a humane society pretty close to them. And.

00:48:41:16 - 00:49:07:10

Wendy Lyons

Well, then you also see, as I see or saw the other day, they said, you know, if you can't adopt, maybe you could pay for an adoption of a dog for someone else. So that way maybe somebody really wants a pet. But, you know, if it's a younger dog, I think those fees are a little more expensive. So if you cover that fee for someone you know, that's someone may be more apt to take a pet knowing that they don't have to pay five or $600.

00:49:07:10 - 00:49:16:19

Wendy Lyons

And I don't think people realize how expensive it is for these shelters to spay neuter and get shots or treat any illnesses or worse.

00:49:16:22 - 00:49:17:04

David Lyons

Just to.

00:49:17:04 - 00:49:19:27

Wendy Lyons

Feel expensive. And the thing. Yeah, just.

00:49:19:27 - 00:49:21:07

David Lyons

To feed and give them a place.

00:49:21:10 - 00:49:40:11

Jai Hamilton

Yeah. And I know for Lexington, the cost for puppies are higher than adult dogs, but they the reason is to offset that cost for the dogs that are there longer. So they've had dogs there for years now they get enrichment. We've got a lot of volunteers that will take them out to hiking to stay in hotels. I mean.

00:49:40:17 - 00:49:45:20

Jai Hamilton

Oh yeah, in Lexington, the dogs have it made, but still they don't have a family.

00:49:45:22 - 00:49:46:26

Wendy Lyons

Yeah.

00:49:46:26 - 00:50:02:04

David Lyons

Which is that's what they're called for, right? They got to be with a family. Well, excellent stuff. All right, When do you say goodbye? And I got to thank you again for coming in myself and in one more time, I think that for the Schumacher's so many prayers and oh.

00:50:02:16 - 00:50:03:17

Wendy Lyons

My word, yes.

00:50:03:25 - 00:50:23:06

David Lyons

It losing somebody it definitely clearly a benevolent, loving human being. TODD Yeah, it's one of those things where you're like, I wish I'd met him seriously, as you think about that with these people and, and then for the bad shake they get on the justice side, which is the unfortunate part of the process, sometimes just a bad shape.

00:50:23:06 - 00:50:37:16

Wendy Lyons

What is that in your face exactly? Well, thank you so much. Before we close, please tell our listeners and watchers once more about reckless Instagram page.

00:50:38:00 - 00:50:52:10

Jai Hamilton

Of course, I love talking about my dog. Sure it is. His Instagram page is reckless with an R underscore vom v m underscore Logan also o g and h a U.S..

00:50:52:19 - 00:51:04:04

Wendy Lyons

So go follow reckless and if someone is looking for a protection dog, tell us once more the name of your site agency if they wanted to purchase a protection pet.

00:51:04:04 - 00:51:15:05

Jai Hamilton

Yeah. So these are family raised dogs that are good in all environments but will protect if the need arises in the website ads WW dot protection dog sales dot com.

00:51:15:05 - 00:51:15:28

Wendy Lyons

All right.

00:51:16:08 - 00:51:17:12

David Lyons

Fantastic thanks again.

00:51:17:19 - 00:51:34:13

Wendy Lyons

Thank you so much for coming to join us and thank you so much for what you do. The world needs people like you looking out for the animals who have nobody to speak for them. So thank you so much for joining us and for trying to be a voice for poor Monroe when he was still around.

00:51:35:06 - 00:52:08:02

David Lyons

The Murder Police podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It has produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at Murder Police podcast ABC.com, where you will find Shownotes transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police podcast Merch store where you can purchase a huge variety of murder police podcast swag.

00:52:08:16 - 00:52:43:23

David Lyons

We are also on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, which is closed captioned for those that are hearing impaired, just search for the Murder Police podcast and you will find us. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcasts, make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop and please tell your friends lockdown duty.