The Murder of Charlie Sowers | Part 1 of 3

A cold case warms up and is solved after 10 years.

Veteran homicide and cold case detective Rob Wilson return to detail the twists and turns of the murder of Charlie Sowers in Lexington Kentucky.  A beloved owner of a local bar and grill, Charlie was known for his smile and kindness.

In episode 1, listen as Rob describes the hard work that went into the case when it happens, ending up in the "so close, but so far away" file.

You will also hear what The Murder Police Podcast is favored for: what it is like to work in a murder unit, as Rob talks about the teamwork and the humor murder cops use to deal with the worst of the worst.

Shop for Murder Police Podcast swag by clicking HERE today! 10% of ALL swag and merch proceeds are donated to the DNA Doe Project.

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Transcript

The Murder of Charlie Sowers | Part 1 of 3

00;00;02;00 - 00;00;23;01

Rob Wilson

His employees got worried that he didn't come into work that evening. So they went to the house, the doors unlocked, so they went in and they found him at the bottom of the stairs, at the basement. They called 911. E.R. shows up, takes him to the hospital, and it appeared it seems like an elderly man fell down the stairs and hit his head.

00;00;23;23 - 00;01;11;02

Wendy Lyons

Warning! The podcast you're about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to the Murder Police podcast, The murder of Charlie Souers, Part one and welcome to the Murder Police Podcast. Today we will be discussing the 2009 murder of 71 year old Charlie Souers. We have with us Rob Wilson, who's been here four times before.

00;01;11;08 - 00;01;12;13

Wendy Lyons

Rob, how are you today?

00;01;12;15 - 00;01;13;21

Rob Wilson

Doing very well, Thank you.

00;01;13;23 - 00;01;15;02

Wendy Lyons

Thank you for coming back.

00;01;15;02 - 00;01;15;21

Rob Wilson

Any time.

00;01;15;22 - 00;01;18;18

Wendy Lyons

It's always a pleasure. David, how are you?

00;01;18;23 - 00;01;26;06

David Lyons

Good. I'm here. And thanks again for coming back. We were joking before we started. We should call this the Murder Police Rob Wilson show. Since you, I think you've ranked every I.

00;01;26;06 - 00;01;27;28

Wendy Lyons

Think Rob has outranked everyone.

00;01;27;29 - 00;01;32;05

Rob Wilson

And this is my fifth visit. Do I get, like, a gold jacket or do we should get.

00;01;32;05 - 00;01;36;02

Wendy Lyons

A got a pint glass there with top it off for you with something.

00;01;36;03 - 00;01;38;25

Rob Wilson

I'll take anything you guys want to give me for free.

00;01;38;28 - 00;01;44;19

David Lyons

There's a murder police pocketknife. Just we don't want that to show up in a crime scene, Art. I mean, it's.

00;01;44;21 - 00;01;46;15

Rob Wilson

It's some good advertisement, right?

00;01;46;19 - 00;01;56;06

David Lyons

Exactly. Just make sure it's angled so that forensic pictures get it in the sternum, wherever it's left. So. But all kidding aside, thanks for coming back. And this is a fascinating case. Yeah.

00;01;56;06 - 00;01;57;26

Rob Wilson

I always enjoy coming back, talking. Yes.

00;01;58;03 - 00;02;19;07

Wendy Lyons

So we've had you for our listeners who have maybe not listened or want to listen, we've had you on here for Alex Johnson. Very interesting case. Probably breaking up there is one of my favorites, Mt. Meghan leaving good Todd Schumacher's, which we just covered not two or three long ago. And then cold cases with you. Yeah, you're just a plethora of knowledge, Rob.

00;02;19;07 - 00;02;28;10

Rob Wilson

Will he stay in one place that long? So you're going to come across some cases. So, yeah, I was in Homicide for almost 20 years, so certainly had my share of interesting cases.

00;02;28;12 - 00;02;31;09

David Lyons

Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about you and your career, just to refresh.

00;02;31;15 - 00;02;59;10

Rob Wilson

Sure. Join the police department, I guess. Summer of 98 went through the academy and then got assigned to West Sector. Second shift, did two or three years there. Then the first chance I got to interview or for the Detective Bureau I did was lucky enough to land in the robbery homicide unit and so fortunate to get into a unit with such top notch people.

00;02;59;13 - 00;03;05;12

Rob Wilson

And there wasn't a better place to learn investigations in the homicide unit with that personnel.

00;03;05;15 - 00;03;06;11

David Lyons

And it was fun.

00;03;06;13 - 00;03;07;15

Rob Wilson

I mean, so much.

00;03;07;15 - 00;03;12;02

David Lyons

Yeah, for sure. I got to say, it's fun. You know, I don't know if people would grasp it that way, but it was.

00;03;12;07 - 00;03;22;17

Rob Wilson

I mean, there is, you know, a morbid side to it, but that job has to be done. But you do it long enough and you have to do it with a sense of humor or you will go a little crazy.

00;03;22;20 - 00;03;23;11

Wendy Lyons

I'm sure.

00;03;23;12 - 00;03;35;27

David Lyons

And fortunately you made it in with just that few years on, which was a sign of how things have changed, is that years ago you went to the Detective Bureau based on seniority, which didn't always get a lot of work done, but that's a different area.

00;03;35;27 - 00;03;54;00

Rob Wilson

Yeah, it used to be seen upon is like almost a retirement gig. Yes. Now you could go to a burglary and just ride it out and nobody cared if you solved any cases or not. Homicide Unit was a little different and we got really lucky with people like Paul Williams, James Karlis, you know, the supervisors, Chris going over.

00;03;54;00 - 00;04;03;22

Rob Wilson

And then we get my brother too, and Rob Wilson, Dave Richardson, Bill Breslin, Steve McCown, Franz Wolff, all these people that we didn't have any movement in that unit for over ten years.

00;04;03;22 - 00;04;04;24

David Lyons

Which is fantastic.

00;04;04;24 - 00;04;22;04

Rob Wilson

Yes. And that's that's you know, there have been talk about just for mental well-being, you only stay in homicide or sex crimes for like five years or once. Like that's when you're really just learning the job. Now you were coming proficient at it. So I understand that and appreciate, you know, people caring about our mental health and such.

00;04;22;04 - 00;04;27;10

Rob Wilson

But you're really just kind of catching your groove at that five year mark and really become confident in what you're doing.

00;04;27;11 - 00;04;37;20

David Lyons

And I think there's worse places to work in the PD Oh, that sounds like crimes against children. Amen. That one is is mind blowing and God bless the people that it can deal with. Yeah.

00;04;37;21 - 00;04;48;20

Rob Wilson

So I went of course, I've been to several autopsies. I've only been to one child autopsy. I'll never go again. That one. That one stuck with me and it's like I don't need to do that.

00;04;48;22 - 00;04;55;27

David Lyons

Mm. Yeah, it's, it's rough. Those are the ones that really go into that box and. Yeah. And come out on you unexpectedly. Yeah.

00;04;55;27 - 00;04;59;17

Rob Wilson

Those people do some terrific work and. Yeah. Hats off to them.

00;04;59;22 - 00;05;08;20

David Lyons

Yeah. Good people. Good people. What this case that we're going to talk about today, what stands out about it that is different and maybe some of them that we've talked about on the show before.

00;05;08;24 - 00;05;18;13

Rob Wilson

Well, it's actually a cold case that got solved and it a it happened in 2009 and I wound up making an arrest in October of 2020.

00;05;18;15 - 00;05;35;29

David Lyons

Cool. Got this is good because I think the show you did with this on cold cases was super educational for people. There's so much misinformation in the world right now about what the police can do and why they end up being parked like that and whatever. And I think that you cleared up a lot of the mythology that's out there.

00;05;35;29 - 00;05;40;27

David Lyons

So this will be your whole thing and cold case in practice. I'm excited about it.

00;05;41;00 - 00;05;49;05

Wendy Lyons

And to have it go so long without being solved, I'm sure that was a huge relief for the family to finally have some knowledge of.

00;05;49;12 - 00;06;12;16

Rob Wilson

It was, but they were cautious. I opened it up again for maybe two months and did some work on it and saw that, okay, I think it's got some legs. I think we can do this. And only at that point did I contact Mr. Souers daughter Sharon, and tracked her down in Richmond and had a talk with her in her house.

00;06;12;18 - 00;06;33;20

Rob Wilson

And she was she was happy, but she was also please don't do this unless you truly think you can solve it. Just like I don't want old wounds being torn open for for it to go unsolved again. She's like, I already did that ten years ago, so promise me. And I just was like, I never promise I'm going to be able to solve a crime.

00;06;33;22 - 00;06;44;25

Rob Wilson

I will promise I will give you my all and I will be transparent. I'll stay in constant communication with you. There will be things that I cannot tell you about the investigation, but I will tell you everything that I can.

00;06;44;28 - 00;07;03;16

David Lyons

I think that's so important to be straight up about that it you have to. I know of a case right now that's unsolved and the victim's family and I don't have any reason to doubt them. But according to the family, a detective somewhere told them one day that I'll have an arrest in six months. And we're well past that.

00;07;03;18 - 00;07;11;13

David Lyons

And the idea being is that is stick with the idea that we're going to work hard on it, because I think it could take in some way and a roller coaster ride would just be awful. Yeah.

00;07;11;13 - 00;07;12;22

Rob Wilson

It's not fair to them.

00;07;12;24 - 00;07;15;09

David Lyons

What what a neat thing to talk about. Yeah, well.

00;07;15;11 - 00;07;24;00

Wendy Lyons

Well, tell us. So you actually were primary, I guess, on this when this happened on May 27th of 2009. Did this initially become yours or.

00;07;24;03 - 00;07;48;03

Rob Wilson

Know it was originally David Richardson and Chris Goon over worked it. I remember going out to the scene that night simply to help with a neighborhood canvass, because at first Mr. Souers got found because he owns a restaurant in a bar off Bryan Station Road in the I believe it's a high crest shopping plaza. I think it was called thoroughbreds at the time.

00;07;48;06 - 00;08;07;25

Rob Wilson

His employees got worried that he didn't come into work that evening. So they went to the house. The door was unlocked, so they went in and they found him at the bottom of the stairs at the basement. They called 911 e.R. Shows up, takes him to the hospital and it appeared at the scenes like an elderly man fell down the stairs and hit his head.

00;08;07;28 - 00;08;27;28

Rob Wilson

So we get called initially and a patrol unit responds. They call out a detective. We're not thinking much of it. And while they were at the scene, the detective gets a call from one of the officers at U. K says. The doctor says that there's multiple strikes to the head, so this isn't going to be from a single fall.

00;08;28;01 - 00;08;48;04

Rob Wilson

And at that point, several detectives from the homicide unit responded, Well, he was Dave Richardson because he was next up on the homicide rotation. Chris going over was going to be his secondary and I think Bill Breslin, Steve McCown and I showed up to assist with just the neighborhood canvass.

00;08;48;07 - 00;08;52;22

David Lyons

Gotcha. What do we know about Charlie Sours then?

00;08;52;24 - 00;09;13;26

Rob Wilson

Quite the character. Everybody we talked to, let's say he owned a couple of different businesses and I think this is what probably got him in trouble. He liked he didn't use credit or he had a big wad of cash on him all the time. Like to show it. You know, he'd pay beer vendors, employees in cash, you know, so everybody would see what you know, that he had a stack of money.

00;09;13;28 - 00;09;42;22

Rob Wilson

But in kind of a rough and tumble guy, you know, kept his bar in check. He didn't have a bouncer. He just did it himself, but really had a reputation as just a big, lovable guy that liked his businesses. He liked the horses and, you know, sports and but just really enjoyed being at his bar and didn't find too many people that had anything bad to say about him other than, you know, he'd flash their cash.

00;09;42;22 - 00;09;48;08

Rob Wilson

And they were always afraid, especially in the business, that someone would come in, you know, and try to rob him.

00;09;48;11 - 00;09;51;07

David Lyons

It wouldn't be the first time. Correct? Wouldn't be the first time.

00;09;51;10 - 00;09;59;24

Wendy Lyons

Sounds like. And so on this night, you didn't end up initially working this whole thing. So I guess take us up to when you got involved.

00;09;59;25 - 00;10;09;15

David Lyons

Well, let me let's go back a little bit. What do you know about what what happened? Do you know anything about what they tried back in 2009? Were you close enough to them when they were working on it just to see if we have any gaps? It was.

00;10;09;15 - 00;10;33;10

Rob Wilson

Yeah, I had a you know, for people out there listening, the homicide unit is actually fairly small room. We had like ten detectives at the time, so while you're working on your cases, you're listening to other detectives talk about theirs. Like, say, I just went out there that night to assist with the neighborhood canvass and I wasn't going to be involved in the case whatsoever without hearing what Dave and Chris were doing.

00;10;33;12 - 00;10;52;16

Rob Wilson

And it was one of those cases where you get a tip pretty soon of who the suspect or suspects might be, and then you start getting a couple more. And so Dave and Chris did their due diligence and was like looking into each suspect as being the individual that may or may not be responsible for the death of Mr. Sauer.

00;10;52;16 - 00;11;04;00

Rob Wilson

So it was really your standard case, just they never got quite enough. And then these weird things happened like Dave Richardson got promoted.

00;11;04;02 - 00;11;04;19

David Lyons

There we go.

00;11;04;19 - 00;11;30;07

Rob Wilson

And so that case then goes to Chris. Well, at that point, Chris is still working his cases as his primary. And then Chris got pulled in to cold case thereafter, and he was instructed by the department, Hey, we'd like you to look into these specific cold cases. So he was following orders and then Chris retired. And with that we didn't have the funding anymore for the Cold case unit.

00;11;30;10 - 00;11;44;14

Rob Wilson

So really the case just sat there until Albert Johnson said he got approval to open up the cold case unit again, asked if I'd like to run it, and I jumped up with both hands in the air and said, Absolutely.

00;11;44;17 - 00;12;03;20

David Lyons

For sure, Yeah, that's any given you. And we talked about that when you did Cold Case that so much depends on funding. Police departments are not endless buffets of cash in homicide units in particular are limited to begin with. It's always been that way. And unfortunately things like cold case investigation, you could look at it as a luxury item.

00;12;03;21 - 00;12;22;08

David Lyons

Yes. Said if you have some left over in a noose, the time factor. I think what's needed is when you describe that bay or that room, I think most of our listeners would probably give behind, too, to sit in that room for a day, because it really is the hub of of all that activity and just the conversations that go on.

00;12;22;08 - 00;12;33;28

David Lyons

Like you said, so many things that even back in the day when I was in a unit just overhearing one another and then somebody would interject and say, you mean so-and-so, and it was being together. Like that was mission critical.

00;12;33;28 - 00;12;53;05

Rob Wilson

So, yes, the way it was set up, I can't tell you how many cases got solved because they were talking about, let's see, Dave and Chris, we're talking about we got this suspect nicknames. No, no. And then Steve McCann would jump on that. That's Nathan Richardson. There we go. Yeah. How's it? Seems like now I've got him on and Rob's like, But your case is better.

00;12;53;09 - 00;13;10;29

Rob Wilson

Let's put all our efforts on that one and we clear that one will more than likely be able to clear mine. So it really was just a team effort and just so many of those cases got solved just by you hearing something that you'd worked on a case two years before that was pertinent to them. Now, you know, it's it was crazy how some of those things worked.

00;13;10;29 - 00;13;30;25

David Lyons

Out, though. He was or someone might have an informant. They can get somewhere where the other people can't and they pick up the phone and yeah, have there was it was just need I've said before that for me in my career that was the premier team experience 28 years and nothing got close to that. Not been it's truly all the dynamics of what a good team or exist in that unit for a reason.

00;13;30;25 - 00;13;32;17

David Lyons

And yeah, it's just amazing stuff.

00;13;32;17 - 00;13;35;00

Rob Wilson

Yeah. And if you're not a good team member, you don't last long.

00;13;35;04 - 00;13;35;25

David Lyons

Oh Lord, now.

00;13;35;27 - 00;13;37;07

Rob Wilson

You get run out pretty quick.

00;13;37;11 - 00;13;41;10

David Lyons

Yeah, it's out. You know, I was talking to Paul Williams. We had Paul on with Billy Richmond.

00;13;41;10 - 00;13;42;29

Rob Wilson

Oh, my gosh. I haven't listened to that.

00;13;42;29 - 00;13;45;21

David Lyons

Well, a bit, Yeah, some actually. Yeah. I think we were in.

00;13;45;22 - 00;13;46;20

Wendy Lyons

Quite the party.

00;13;46;21 - 00;13;51;15

David Lyons

I think we're in here for about 8 hours and got 13 minutes of usable audio right in the FCC.

00;13;51;16 - 00;13;52;23

Rob Wilson

Listen, it ends like now, but.

00;13;52;23 - 00;14;00;25

David Lyons

It is fine. Me and Paul got on a phone conversation just a couple of weeks ago talking about another case that he's going to come back for because he's so fun to talk about.

00;14;00;25 - 00;14;01;26

Rob Wilson

Absolutely.

00;14;01;29 - 00;14;16;01

David Lyons

And he was talking about when he was the supervisor up there that when I interviewed people that they used to had, they bring people in that bring their little resume. You know how it is when you're interviewing for a position and they throw people off because they'd look at them and say, tell me the funniest joke you've ever heard.

00;14;16;03 - 00;14;18;29

David Lyons

And most people would get a deer in headlights look because they're like.

00;14;19;04 - 00;14;20;03

Wendy Lyons

You're not expecting that.

00;14;20;03 - 00;14;37;02

David Lyons

Person. And you're like, Can you can you look at the record management system and blah, blah, blah? Well, let me see your last five cases and everything. And you know, he would they would tell him, don't worry about being offensive or anything in this room. And what they were looking for was those kind of people, not that you had to be a comedian, but can you relax?

00;14;37;02 - 00;14;45;12

David Lyons

And that. Yes, vulnerability. Yeah, we call that to be around other people and work with them. Yeah. So it was kind of neat that that was in an interview question that you didn't see. No.

00;14;45;14 - 00;15;06;15

Rob Wilson

We had one. I forget the detective's name. He went on to do really good work in narcotics, but he interviewed for Homicide and Assistant Chief Maynard was lieutenant at the time, and he's getting ready for his interview or whatever. Like, you know, Lieutenant Maynard loves a good joke because, like, before it even starts, you need to tell him, Hey, I'd like to start things off with a joke.

00;15;06;17 - 00;15;26;22

Rob Wilson

And he's, like, serious. And he was like, Oh, yeah, God, that man, you'll be heads above everybody else if you do that. And I told him the joke to tell and I cannot say it now. So we're all kind of out in the bay listening and Kelly goes and closes the door and 45 seconds later, the door opens.

00;15;26;24 - 00;15;31;24

Rob Wilson

Maynard leads his head out and looks at me and like, That's not fair to do that.

00;15;31;26 - 00;15;34;16

David Lyons

So police don't have to one another. Yeah, I.

00;15;34;22 - 00;15;40;16

Rob Wilson

Say, Yeah, it's a great unit. And again, everybody had a sense of humor. And do you remember Matt Sharp?

00;15;40;21 - 00;15;41;14

David Lyons

Yes, I do.

00;15;41;15 - 00;16;01;17

Rob Wilson

Yeah, we are. I think Jerry Kurt Singer, who again went on to become a legendary detective in his own right in Narcotics. And but he was I think we pushed him into interviewing with us. We wanted him so bad. And before he went in, Schaap snuck his phone away and did something on his phone and then put it back on his desk.

00;16;01;19 - 00;16;20;23

Rob Wilson

And so Lieutenant Carlson is like, Jerry, come on and ready. Start. So Jerry goes in the room and Matt gives his all around Carla's door and he calls Jared's number and they're talking. And all of a sudden you just hear, Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow. You changed his ringtone.

00;16;20;26 - 00;16;22;07

David Lyons

I love it.

00;16;22;10 - 00;16;27;29

Rob Wilson

And of course, Carlos, with horn best senses of humor average, you could just hear him laughing. And Jared, it's not a big deal.

00;16;28;00 - 00;16;30;28

David Lyons

Yeah, exactly. That's the stuff you miss when you retire.

00;16;30;28 - 00;16;31;23

Rob Wilson

Absolutely.

00;16;31;23 - 00;16;45;04

David Lyons

Is that it? It was a car. It was a comedy caravan for the most part, when you were up there. And that's how you handled the nasty. Yeah. There's a you had to laugh about everything you could laugh about because that's how you that's how you just put everything. We were good where you could work.

00;16;45;04 - 00;16;50;17

Rob Wilson

Yeah, I'd heard a lot of people like athletes when they retire. It's like, What do you miss most in the locker room?

00;16;50;18 - 00;16;53;08

David Lyons

That's it? Yeah. For sure. And that's pretty much what areas. Yeah.

00;16;53;08 - 00;17;12;14

Rob Wilson

Yeah, exactly. And Brad Ingram came up with something when he was a lieutenant over Homicide. Somebody came in like a commander is and is like, Hi, It's a rough room. They're really tearing up on each other. What? This can't be good for morale. He's like, they are verbal sparring. Yeah, he goes. Whether they know it or not, they're preparing to go on the stand to be cross-examined.

00;17;12;21 - 00;17;21;24

Rob Wilson

You have to be able to learn to think on your feet and defend yourself, you know? And if you can't do it here, it's going to be real tough in a courtroom. Yeah. So I thought that was an interesting take on it.

00;17;21;29 - 00;17;33;24

David Lyons

Well, I had it when I was in the unit. We had a new sergeant come in and they watched for a couple of weeks and brought us in the office one at a time. And I think I remember a box of tissue on the desk and it was it was almost a come to Jesus of Are you okay?

00;17;33;24 - 00;17;52;22

David Lyons

Yeah, I'm okay. I'm all right. Wow. Well, are you okay? Are you really okay? Yeah. And they'd watch that and they were like, And finally he said, It's just that everybody's really rough on each other and it looks like you're pretty tired. And I said, That's love. Yeah. And I don't know if you haven't seen them. Yeah, but it was from the outside, you know, we always it's like, you know this too.

00;17;52;22 - 00;18;07;05

David Lyons

You go out and you get called out at three in the morning and you haven't been to sleep for three days. Yeah. And the last one who walks in that bay gets beat up like a, like a circus monkey. I mean, a lazy. So like, of course, we always picked on people like Billy Richmond. Sure. Well, it was easy.

00;18;07;05 - 00;18;09;16

Rob Wilson

Yeah. The slow antelope on the Serengeti there.

00;18;09;16 - 00;18;15;29

David Lyons

Yeah. You know anybody? You know when when a sixth grade is the three hardest years of your life? Yes. I mean, that's. That's a little early, so it's like.

00;18;16;01 - 00;18;17;06

Wendy Lyons

Billy, I'll get you a little boy.

00;18;17;06 - 00;18;37;18

David Lyons

Oh, yeah, he will, for sure. Well, let's. We've jumped off the track, but I think that's one thing the listeners get interested in is what's it really like? Yeah, it compare to the B.S. that's on TV and movies and stuff like that. That that it is a it's a huge team thing. There's no room for ego and that and these cases would never get laid down if if people had an ego involved in it.

00;18;37;18 - 00;18;42;21

David Lyons

So yeah, getting back to it. So we I think you brought us up to speed on what what they, what the initial work was, which.

00;18;42;21 - 00;18;52;15

Wendy Lyons

I well I do, I do want to ask so this poor family they went just more than ten years hoping, waiting, waiting and nothing Correct.

00;18;52;18 - 00;19;00;27

Rob Wilson

And Dave and Kris worked it really hard for six months. And then, you know, there's only so much you can do.

00;19;00;29 - 00;19;02;14

David Lyons

Thank you.

00;19;02;16 - 00;19;17;13

Rob Wilson

And if Franz Wolff had this problem on his first couple of murders, you know, he's like, Robin, I'm missing anything. Like, buddy, you're not. Yeah. Was like, I've been with you every step of the way. He was brand new. I was like, There's not anything you haven't done that I could pick up and say, Oh, you haven't tried this.

00;19;17;16 - 00;19;32;14

Rob Wilson

It's like sometimes you have to put it on the shelf for just a bit and just kind of maybe pull it down in a month and look at it again with fresh eyes. It's like sometimes. Franz It just takes the phone to ring. You'll get a call one day and it will unravel so fast you won't believe it.

00;19;32;17 - 00;19;45;29

David Lyons

That's important again for victims families to know. Yeah, because another one of the things that's out there in the in the mythology is nobody's working on the case now. You got it. Now, let's be honest. You could have a detective somewhere that's. It's a lazy.

00;19;46;01 - 00;19;47;20

Rob Wilson

Sure, they exist.

00;19;47;21 - 00;20;03;29

David Lyons

Yeah, they exist. They're outliers. You could have that. But the idea is, is that at some point they do get to a place for in the moment or they're terminated based on the fact that nothing's new. And that's with everything. Yeah. Working on it doesn't mean going back and redoing everything unless there's a reason to redo it or if.

00;20;03;29 - 00;20;22;10

Rob Wilson

It's because you have other cases. That's it. Yeah. You know, and before a situation like that, if I worked one for three, four months and just like I'm at the end of the road, I would call a unit in and give them a complete rundown of the case, what I've done and ask if there's anything more to do.

00;20;22;12 - 00;20;32;07

Rob Wilson

And surely there will always be an idea or two. But when you get to that point, when you've got ten experienced investigators go, Yeah, I can't think of anything right.

00;20;32;07 - 00;20;46;03

David Lyons

Now in your in your back to the phone ringing. Yes. Or someone coming into headquarters. Yeah. I mean, how many times has that happened where it just happens. Yeah. It's where the phone rings or you get a message or you get a phone call or go down and meet somebody at the front counter. Yeah. And we've all had that.

00;20;46;03 - 00;20;49;18

David Lyons

And all of a sudden they hand you a case, which is just a miraculous thing.

00;20;49;18 - 00;21;14;05

Rob Wilson

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's exactly what happened to Fran's on that case. It went unsolved for eight months, and he got a phone call one day. I think it noon, and he had the guy in custody by 5:00 that afternoon. Sometimes it just happens that quick and all you need. James Carlos always said it's like it's on. It's tough to rip up a sweater, but if you can find a loose end, all it takes is pulling it and the whole thing comes apart.

00;21;14;08 - 00;21;16;05

Rob Wilson

Yeah, and that's exactly the way it is.

00;21;16;05 - 00;21;20;15

David Lyons

I've talked to Franz at branding or his retirement party. We're going to try to get Franz on.

00;21;20;16 - 00;21;22;01

Rob Wilson

And he'd be fantastic.

00;21;22;01 - 00;21;26;07

David Lyons

On it. He's like a little cherub, you know? Yeah, It's like in a church or something. He's just an.

00;21;26;07 - 00;21;28;09

Rob Wilson

Eager. Yeah. Great storyteller.

00;21;28;09 - 00;21;29;08

David Lyons

Yeah, big time.

00;21;29;11 - 00;21;47;00

Wendy Lyons

Well, let's go back to this. So in between, I know this murder happened in May of 2009, You made an arrest in October of 2020. So at what point did this start unraveling for you that you thought, I've got something? How did that happen?

00;21;47;06 - 00;22;08;26

Rob Wilson

Well, really, it was a call from Dave Richardson, the original detective, and he was like, hey, I heard they opened up Cold Case. He's like, I really think Charlie Sours is solvable. It's like, do me a favor and pick it up and look at it, read through it a couple of times, and they do great work. You know, sometimes you just so at that point it had been ten years.

00;22;08;29 - 00;22;34;15

Rob Wilson

So my list start re-interviewing some of the people that they've interviewed because it's been ten years and we believe suspect new victim and all this stuff and several friends. So maybe somebody broke up with their girlfriend and now they're ready to talk stuff like that. So just really wound up re-interviewing people. And one interview with Tonya Joyner, talk to her and she's like, yeah, talk to Tony McQueen.

00;22;34;15 - 00;22;38;03

Rob Wilson

And she said that she was with.

00;22;38;05 - 00;22;44;20

Wendy Lyons

Hey, you know, there's more to the story, so go download the next episode. Like the true crime fan that you are.

00;22;44;22 - 00;23;18;01

David Lyons

The Murder Police podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform as well as at Murder Police podcast sitcom, where you will find Shownotes transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police podcast, Mark's Store, where you can purchase a huge variety of murder police podcast swag.

00;23;18;03 - 00;23;42;02

David Lyons

We are also on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, which is closed captioned For those that are hearing impaired, just search for the murder. Police podcast and you will find us. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcast, make sure you set your play it or automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop.

00;23;42;04 - 00;23;45;15

David Lyons

And please tell your friends lockdown duty.