The Murder of Charlie Sowers | Part 3 of 3

Get ready to uncover the profound complexities of plea bargaining in our latest Murder Police Podcast. We'll pull back the curtain on the labyrinth of decisions that define the negotiation and mediation process in high-stakes murder cases. You'll gain a deeper understanding of the emotional rollercoaster victims' families endure, and the weight of the decisions they make. We promise, it's an eye-opening journey you won't want to miss.

Then, we transition to the pivotal role of procedural justice, shining a light on its importance in providing clarity to families navigating the legal process. We also examine the perseverance and loyalty required in solving cold cases, as well as the invaluable role of a strong relationship between the homicide unit and the Commonwealth Attorney. 

Finally, we peel back the layers of teamwork in handling cold cases, and the crucial role of experienced detectives in understanding case nuances. We share the compelling Charlie Sowers case, reflecting on the impact of the plea bargain on the family and the commendable efforts by the judge and prosecutor to ensure they were guided through every step. This episode is a testament to the relentless pursuit of justice, and the essential balance of a united team in achieving it.

Shop for Murder Police Podcast swag by clicking HERE today! 10% of ALL swag and merch proceeds are donated to the DNA Doe Project.

See what you have been missing on YouTube!

Transcript

Rob Wilson: 0:01

She wasn't happy and I get it, because they did deserve more time.

Wendy Lyons: 0:05

Yes.

Rob Wilson: 0:06

But I think it was the right decision the judge and the prosecutor, jenna McNeil, to a great job of explaining the process and a potential outcome and reminded her of her original conversation with me. It's like I just want answers. I don't want their life ruins.

Wendy Lyons: 0:26

Warning. The podcast you're about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to the Murder Police podcast the murder of Charlie Sowers, part three.

David Lyons: 1:25

Uh, mine was Linda White, and and I remember talking to a reporter who covered the trial and we were at a gym one day and he said you know, if it was me I would have had to know who had the hammer in their hand, because it was that and and uh, jonathan, go forth the drone in the nefarious black guy that never was there.

Rob Wilson: 1:42

He threw another guy in the mix.

David Lyons: 1:43

That never existed. But that's hard for a jury. And it's hard when you're doing that, because when you're testifying, it's those are the nuances people will never understand, probably when you have to redact it and act like that other person doesn't exist. And it, it you look stupid in the you really do.

Rob Wilson: 2:00

Yeah, it's like you arrested on that statement and it's like, well, you didn't hear 35% of it. Yeah.

David Lyons: 2:07

You know, a lot of people don't like plea bargains, but a lot of times you take the plea on who you feel is the less culpable. And that's tricky too, Yep Cause we've put people, all of us have put people in prison before that. Uh, maybe uh didn't even put the pull, the trigger, but you have to make a decision on Fisher and her bait, because the power of that statement, even though they're going to attack it, might get over those humps with you yeah, yeah. What a difficult thing for a jury to put together.

Rob Wilson: 2:33

It really is. And again, those trying, those are nightmares and you know going into it when you make the arrest and it's like I can imagine this thing three years down the road, the, the interview being cut to shreds, you know being redacted and what are we going to be left with. And it was a. It was looking to be a nightmare. But on their end too, they both knew that. They put themselves there and one of them was responsible. And you can roll the dice and be like jury, could be like well, we can't decide, so you can go for you, or they can be like both y'all were responsible.

Rob Wilson: 3:07

So 25 the life for both of you. So there's a gamble on both sides. And this one again it was a Charlie's daughter. She was. She was wonderful when I explained to her that I was opening it up. She's like I honestly believe that neither one of them went there to kill him. They went to steal his money. He caught them, he fought them and it went too far and she's like they're young enough. People I don't want to see their entire lives are ruined for this. So that was huge for us in like plea bargaining.

David Lyons: 3:44

I was going to say that when you'd mentioned the daughter is how she responded to complicity, because the one thing everybody wants is full on murder. And then when you start talking about manslaughter and reckless and wantons and all the different mindsets and stuff. People start getting kind of shaky because when you mean reckless, I was like the law dictates that.

Rob Wilson: 4:03

So she, I guess, was okay with the idea of the use complicity she was, and I talked to her too in that first meeting. I was like, listen, so much time's gone by, some witnesses have died, like I think I can show, probably because that they did it, convicting them as a whole different story. And she was, but at least I'll have peace to know who did. I was like you think you know peace until they walk out of a courtroom on an acquittal? Yes, there's no worse feeling. I was like so there will be the possibility of pleas for manslaughter Sure. And I went ahead and told her that because I knew, if it played out with the pointing the fingers at each other, that was going to be a real possibility. And sure enough it was. So we start negotiating. And had you ever gone through mediation on a case, a trial?

Rob Wilson: 4:51

No it was. It's fairly new and I think it got brought up with COVID. They were trying to speed up, you know, because they were getting so far behind in the court dockets and it's a really interesting process. You've got a retired judge that comes in. The defendants are there, the prosecutors, me and the family are in the courtroom and that's it. The judge, the mediator, comes up and basically explains what's going to happen. And we had a retired judge, judge Adams, from Madison County. She was fantastic because it would take a certain personality to do mediation.

Rob Wilson: 5:23

You've got to be able to really relate because at that point she separated the defense and their attorneys would go into a room and we stayed in the courtroom and she would come out and basically me or the prosecutor would give a synopsis of the case and obviously she'd read through the case file and such and she would talk to the families. Like you know, did some really good work here. But you know you all have some obstacles and luckily I told these to Sharon beforehand. So when she did a little, I was like why just don't things like? Sharon? I told you that this was going to be a real possibility. You know you wanted to find out who did it and we did that and you didn't want their entire lives ruined. Okay, and that's why we're here right now, because we could go to trial and we could get 30 years, or we could go and they could walk out.

Rob Wilson: 6:08

I was like so this is a negotiation that happens on every murder case. Sometimes they go to trial, but a lot of them plead out and it really just depends on the strength of the case and because at the time that it passed and witnesses that had died, our case wasn't going to be great in trial. But you know, we were able to provide the answers that Sharon and the family wanted and they wound up pleading on a manslaughter. And again she's telling us in the family the faults of the case, but then she's going into the defense room and talking to the defense. Like you both put yourselves there. What do you think a jury is going to do? Do they? Do you think they honestly care who hit him over the head? You both went in there to steal so you could both get life or you could walk. I don't know. You know here's some middle ground that I think that we can all work with. So it was really a fascinating process, yeah.

David Lyons: 6:58

I think the best part is having the victims' family participate. Yes, procedural justice is the term for that nowadays. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, that's the whole. Idea is clarity and transparency and what the process is Instead of them. God forbid reading the paper one morning and seeing a plea bargain was made on their father, I mean, and that's probably happened in the past Now.

Wendy Lyons: 7:18

did Sharon know? Did she know these people?

Rob Wilson: 7:21

Oh yeah.

Wendy Lyons: 7:22

She knew them personally.

Rob Wilson: 7:23

Yeah, and she knew she was one of the ones early on that knew more than likely that Rachel and Edward did, and that was so frustrating for her thinking that Dave and Chris weren't working hard. But here's the case file. It's 300 pages long. They busted their asses on it and again they just they got to the edge and then Dave had to leave the unit. Chris got pulled, you know. So who's going to pick it up? Everybody else has a full case load and even if we didn't have a cold case unit, if a call had come in on an old case, somebody would have been assigned to track it down.

David Lyons: 7:54

Yeah, that's important to realize too is they don't get put in a vault and they're seen again, they're always accessible and and you know I've said it before too is that sometimes time does get on your side, as they're rolling stones at times on your side. It's frustrating, yeah, but in the lack of having workability in that moment to actually push the train forward, just like, you have the penalty you pay with witnesses dying. People's memories change or they relax a little bit. Time can be a benefit to, yeah.

Rob Wilson: 8:22

And again it's like of the cold cases I worked or solved. Everybody's like I bet DNA really solved that and I was like no, it's a ticked off ex-girlfriend.

Wendy Lyons: 8:31

Yeah.

Rob Wilson: 8:31

You know, is relationships break and with that the loyalty to that person goes away. And especially in a situation like this where it'd be different if she wasn't there and he told her she's not in any trouble. But she knew she was there. So she kind of had this like I'm not going down for this all by myself.

David Lyons: 8:52

Hell hath no fury like a woman scored.

Rob Wilson: 8:55

Yeah.

David Lyons: 8:55

I think all of us have laid down more than one case where that happens Absolutely. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing.

Wendy Lyons: 9:00

Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, so how much time did they end up doing?

Rob Wilson: 9:05

10 years. They both took 10 years.

Wendy Lyons: 9:08

And they'll have to serve all 10.

David Lyons: 9:09

I believe well, 85% Well even man one, man one, yeah, maybe, yeah man two is 20%, so but yeah, I believe it's 10 years.

Rob Wilson: 9:21

So I think, yeah, they'll do eight and a half years.

David Lyons: 9:24

But these days, you know it, it. That was probably a not that we like I don't put, like put math through it, but these days maybe that's not a raw deal. I mean it because juries construct a shit out of you too.

Rob Wilson: 9:36

Yeah, Well, I think we talked about on Schumacher how I was floored on that one. Yeah, they came back with a man one or a man two and he's been stabbed over a hundred times.

David Lyons: 9:44

There we go.

Rob Wilson: 9:44

Yeah, like how is that self-defense, when you don't have any wounds on yourself except slices on your palm, where you know your hand slid down on the knife blade? And as it's just? I've always said I have a great respect for jurors, but on that one they just got it wrong.

David Lyons: 9:59

Yeah, it's that happens every now and then. Fortunately it's infrequent.

Rob Wilson: 10:03

I think yeah, but you're right, it is getting tougher to get harsher sentences, right? Yeah, it really is like heck you're getting more time for, you know, like drug charges and you are a typical murder, because they will, and a lot of the murders do it does boil down to a self-defense type situation. You know you've got maybe two gang members, you know, going back and forth at it and it's like he said he was going to kill me. I saw him out on the street. He pulled it, put his hand behind his back. I pulled out my gun and shot him. You know there's some reasonable thought there that you know this guy said he was going to kill me. I know he has a gun and he just put his hand you know where. I can't see it. Do I wait for him to shoot me? And so there is. You know, I do get that street mentality.

David Lyons: 10:46

Well, in the Commonwealth of Kentucky the standard ground or and Castle doctrine very strong in the state. I don't know what there were. Some of the listener states are in Kentucky. And so it's a crime for the police to list you as a suspect. Yes, If, if there's an articulate role to self-defense, is that you can actually have a misdemeanor if you commit that by putting them and accuse them. And you and you have a particular reason to believe that that was a self-defense.

Rob Wilson: 11:09

Yeah, and we'll. You know and James Curl has taught me a lot about that and we handled that basically by if we thought it wasn't truly self-defense or there was some shaky ground to it, we just take it to the grand jury.

David Lyons: 11:20

Exactly.

Rob Wilson: 11:21

And, let you know, 12 citizens of this city decide. Oh no, I think he was in the right.

David Lyons: 11:27

Okay City spoken, which is how your community all be represented in the justice system anyway, yeah, which is a beautiful thing. So I think that's the appropriate use of a grand jury. Yeah, for sure.

Rob Wilson: 11:36

But that mediation was and I had it again not too long ago on a shaken baby case a cold case, and it worked out that guy wound up taking 29 years yeah, but he's kind of dead to rights and he had some PFO stuff, so that's what really jacked it up to 29. Persistent felony offender yeah. Sorry, I keep forgetting that everybody understands our lingo.

David Lyons: 11:58

Dave, exactly.

Wendy Lyons: 11:59

Yeah. That's why we have Wendy here and I'm on the I don't know if I have one I knew what he was saying.

Rob Wilson: 12:02

Yeah, because you've been around too long too.

Wendy Lyons: 12:04

I was just like huh what do you do? Before then Is what I was wearing. Yeah, exactly yeah.

David Lyons: 12:08

It's like, and I don't know if I'd be crazy about mediation on a fresher case maybe you know because but I do think it's a good way. Especially my big thing is the victims' families represented. And what a great judge to slow down and talking. That's that common sense we all wish that and I think that's what victims' families are craving.

Rob Wilson: 12:27

Yeah.

David Lyons: 12:28

Because that's the information. I want to just make make some sense of this.

Rob Wilson: 12:31

Yeah, and I the Commonwealth does a really good job with their victims' advocate, keeping families up to date on the status of their cases and how it's traveling through the court system, so they do a fantastic job with that. But it's at the finish line. They can be completely sane and supportive and then they're like what? Only 15 years? Yeah, you know, and I get where they're coming from and you know they just don't have the knowledge that I might have, or the prosecutors, about the court system and how it can go sideways real quick with the jury.

David Lyons: 13:03

I've always left just so much room for them because they're in a place. I hope. I hope I live every day of my life, today, the last, without having to deal with what they're dealing with. I never want to be in that box that they're in. Yeah so I always I think we were all that way. That's why, if they got mad at me, I was fine with that. Sure, yeah, you have to let them vent yeah.

David Lyons: 13:20

And, and, and. To let them I mean is Jesus Pete, that's so. That is the worst thing that's gonna happen in their life period and a story.

David Lyons: 13:26

Yeah, and so, yeah it, I can understand that frustration. Yeah, and sometimes, like you said, with that one jury thing and shoe mokker, sometimes it is just wrong yeah, or we got we. I think we were always fortunate where we were at, with the prosecutor's office that we had was I'd stack it up against anywhere, because I do look across the country and watch other places where I think things are dealt out Very meekly. And yeah, there's a case on the West Coast right now and I can't remember the name of the victim, but there's. It's an uproar right now because evidently there were witnesses to a murder and everything. And now the prosecutors saying well, the police didn't do a head-in-law job and the police were like we took the case and they said we're just not gonna do it.

David Lyons: 14:06

And now, right now, who's now? You know what? Who's missing? Yeah, it's the victim's family. Yeah, he's watching this thing. That's probably turning very political in front.

Rob Wilson: 14:14

Yeah, so and that was a wonderful thing about Ray Larson they're arrest his soul. He was never afraid to go to trial.

David Lyons: 14:21

Oh lord, no no, yeah, he's like I believe in this case, we're gonna go and he tell the victim's like we may not win but we're gonna take our swing.

Rob Wilson: 14:28

Oh, yeah, yeah, you know. And especially if they were you know everybody says this I want my day in trial until you see the suspect walk out of the courtroom. Yeah, that's what you think, and Ray would tell them like there's a chance, you know, but if you want us to go in, we'll go in with both spits up and he wasn't saying with Louanne, and I know Kim Henderson is saying and you know what.

David Lyons: 14:48

Just to make sure that we're clear on this, you're not bringing them crap either, though, there, this is not a reckless thing. You do it like it was Ray and all of them. It had to meet what they thought was there, but then they had the reality. But that's not saying they would ever take up a flinty case or something. That's weak right and swing the bat they would never do.

Rob Wilson: 15:06

Well, that's where you have to have that great relationship, especially with the homicide unit and the Commonwealth, because we could, we could take a crappy case and it's like well, it's your problem now, mm-hmm, and I think that's actually become a problem here, but it's now getting remedied in a homicide unit.

David Lyons: 15:22

I may or may not have worked for a lieutenant years ago that actually dumped one and raised lap that way one time just cared about a clearance. Oh yeah, and I'll never forget that we went and had the meeting and. I presented, there was a circumstantial thing with an arson and a death. And, yeah, I remember Ray looked at me and this was the neatest thing, ray look at you, he'd listen. He goes Davey, do you think this kid let this fire that? And I said kid, young man, let this fire that killed this guy.

David Lyons: 15:45

I said absolute ankles were on yeah and that's where job Just kind of say, I'll just say it that the lieutenant at the time looks over and goes. Basically what we're saying is that David's brought it over to you and she just y'all's the fuck up now.

Wendy Lyons: 15:56

Yeah and and Ray look at me goes.

David Lyons: 15:59

Would you, david, leave and close the door on? Your way out and what I heard coming out the other side of that door was almost it was profound. Yeah, somebody got taken to the wood shed.

Rob Wilson: 16:08

Yeah, so yeah, but it's funny, I think Ray stole that line from him because he used that on me before I go testify and say, well, now it's on you, junior, don't fuck it up.

David Lyons: 16:17

Oh yeah exactly.

Rob Wilson: 16:19

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

David Lyons: 16:20

Right before I go on the stand for five hours, yeah, but he would never, ever take any of your work. That's what I loved about that he would never take your work if he didn't believe it.

Rob Wilson: 16:28

Yeah and that's you have to have that. And I always did as a detective like I'll take over a circumstantial case and it's like I believe this is what happened, but we don't have DNA, we don't have a video or whatnot. And I'd sit with Andrew or Kim or whoever and Like now I see what you're saying is like I'm on board Because I I want to be a complete team, because I don't want to hand them crap that they didn't want and we lose and they're like Way to go, idiot.

David Lyons: 16:54

Oh yeah.

Rob Wilson: 16:54

So at least if you got that approval, you were in it together, right? You know we're all invested in this and we're gonna do our best. We understand it circumstantial, you know, and more times than not they went down, you know, because the Commonwealth was fantastic presenting cases. But yeah, I always wanted that approval just for on down the road, if things went sideways. They could never point the finger. It means, like you know, you lone wolf did this, but yeah, I just wanted to make sure it was a team effort. Oh yeah.

David Lyons: 17:20

Well, as a matter of fact, lou Anna Redcorn, who just left the office of Commonwealth Attorney, is. I'm trying to schedule her to come in and talk about what that's like to do that job, oh sure, and in to be the first female Commonwealth Attorney in in Fayette County, maybe for a lot of region of the state, and In to talk about these same dynamics we're talking about a casework and things like that. So that'll be, that'll be a good.

Rob Wilson: 17:41

Oh yeah, no.

David Lyons: 17:42

I'm also interested at some point in bringing some victims advocates in and let they deal, bless their heart, that's what they have to.

Rob Wilson: 17:49

I mean, they're the ones that get the call. You know, they that family's had enough that day, for whatever reason. They had a horrible day and they're dealt with, dealing with them on the phone and talking them off the ledge, and a lot of times you know they're irrational, but I can get where they're coming from Sure you know.

Rob Wilson: 18:07

so you know that bless those victims, advocates for what they have to deal with, and you know, keeping that person on board and explaining things again and again and again, it's a, I would imagine, an exhausting job.

David Lyons: 18:20

Absolutely Anything you've got on Charlie Sowers remaining questions.

Wendy Lyons: 18:25

Well, was his daughter satisfied with the sentence they got?

Rob Wilson: 18:29

she understood it, she was, she wasn't happy. Sure, and I get it because they did deserve more time.

Wendy Lyons: 18:35

Yes.

Rob Wilson: 18:36

But I think it was the right decision. The judge and the prosecutor, jenna McNeil, did a great job of explaining the process and a potential outcome and reminded her of her original conversation with me. It's like I just want answers, I don't want their life room. So we're actually Able to remind her of her own thoughts originally when I reopened the case. So she really just like I know you did say that and I agreed and it's like and that's where we are right now, and I know it's not what you want, I know it's not what they deserve, but I think this is the best outcome we can get and she understood it.

Wendy Lyons: 19:14

I think it would be frustrating if I were her, that she knew all along, like she just knew who did it.

Rob Wilson: 19:22

Well, dave and Chris, you proven you know, they knew, but again, it's that what you know and what you can prove, that's right, there's a mile in between that.

Wendy Lyons: 19:31

Well, I think also that's mighty big of her to say she doesn't want the rest of their lives ruined. Because if that were my, father Sure. I would say I hope they never see the light of day again. So that was mighty.

David Lyons: 19:43

If somebody did that to my, my family, I'll just tell you I'd bail them out yeah, low bond and hunt them down. Yeah, we won't have a trial.

Rob Wilson: 19:50

Yeah, so, and Dave could get away with it.

David Lyons: 19:53

Yeah, exactly. Well, and if it got tight, they just signed it to Billy Richmond and.

Rob Wilson: 20:00

Billy's given out more than he's. Billy was brutal himself, so I love that we can bash on me. He's not even here to defend himself.

David Lyons: 20:08

Exactly, I'm gonna make sure, I think.

Wendy Lyons: 20:09

Don Evans. He, from the stories I was was hearing, he probably took it. He took his share of bashings from Billy.

Rob Wilson: 20:16

Oh yeah, sure that's interesting because I had a great run of like 20 years with great people and you had a really good unit too. Yeah, there's a. You know it's some really sharp guys and everybody's all learning everything.

David Lyons: 20:27

every day you learned, yeah, yeah, I mean every day you know it's a part of me really misses it.

Rob Wilson: 20:34

But I think what I really miss was gone several years ago. Yeah, that camaraderie, like my team dissolved. Like I looked up one day it's like, wow, I'm the last one and nothing against the new guys that came in, but we didn't have those shared experiences, you know, and I'm almost a generation older than some of those new guys, you know, and it's like they'd start making jokes about me being old. I'm like, wait, I used to do that to scoom. When did I become?

David Lyons: 20:58

the old man.

David Lyons: 21:00

Leaving depends on your desk and stuff like that, yeah. But I'll tell you that the itch is always there because we've done some unsolved and we're aware of some other unsolved. And there's a part of you, when you listen, that my mind starts registering just like a machine on what would I do with this? What about this? That did it. And you start and there's a piece of you, the damn there puts a key in the car, yeah, and goes out and starts knocking on doors and then you realize you don't do that anymore.

Rob Wilson: 21:23

Yeah, well, chris and I still have to that. We're Working with the homicide unit right now. When I picked up, I think you're the one oh God, yes.

David Lyons: 21:35

Yeah, yes.

Rob Wilson: 21:36

Yeah, close on that and we're close on another. So we're talking with the homicide unit and the Commonwealth. There's some Evidence issues that we need to figure out, but I think these two are two that will will go down eventually, and I'd love to say it won't be us. I think Travis Holt, if they allow him time, is working cold cases, but they're so busy right now. Yeah, I think for the last three years We've had a new record of murders in Lexington like we keep breaking it every huge turnover constantly yes, of people.

Rob Wilson: 22:10

Yeah, and that's again. We talked about it five years. You're just like really starting to feel confident about you. Know your abilities as homicide.

David Lyons: 22:16

You know I bragged. You know I retired three years ago just to date stamp this a little bit in my last command with special investigations and when I'm out working across the Country has always bragged. So the first two30's was about crimeey police. The first one is about Hogwarts. The first case of an ambulance oh thanks, it was a six point shooting. The second one was really strange. It's pretty annoying, but yeah, I commissions from super department, including the police department.

Rob Wilson: 22:47

That's right, that'll be the first one that led begins a better pass than it actually究.

David Lyons: 22:52

Kermit Lee in that.

Rob Wilson: 22:48

There we go. Yeah, exactly, and just latchkey.

David Lyons: 22:48

I mean, they were so good you felt like they may take Repairman as the command. I mean you just get them a new water fountain.

Rob Wilson: 22:58

Was it this thing? I could get them? No, I was always amazed at the high level work that Matt and Jared did, not just busting street corners, I'm talking cartel bus.

David Lyons: 23:09

Exactly and how that tied into murder investigations. Yeah, oh yeah. Is there a search warrant?

Rob Wilson: 23:13

Well, I think did you have Bill and Steve on about the Blue Sky Park, way that's that one, I think, is.

David Lyons: 23:18

I've talked to Matt about it. I think we're going to try to work that out. That would be a fantastic one, yeah.

Rob Wilson: 23:23

Because that was one of the few murders that I am aware of. That actually went federal. Yeah, exactly so, and that was due to the, you know, the crossing state lines with cocaine and international travel. And, yeah, that was a fascinating case. Bill and Steve did exhaustive work on that.

David Lyons: 23:39

I think that that we did Matt's agreed. You know there'll be a couple of issues we'll have to sidestep, like a lot of cases.

Rob Wilson: 23:45

Yeah, I got one of my best compliments ever. It's like somebody's talking about it. We can't decide if You're the mad Evans of homicide or he's the Rob Wilson of narcotics.

David Lyons: 23:55

I was like thank you very much.

Rob Wilson: 23:56

Yes, I just yeah, I think the world of the work that Matt's done is just I'll keep. I'll read in the paper because we don't narcotics and homicide aren't even in the same building. We don't talk all that much, but I'll hear something. I was like how the hell did we get that many kilos in mad Evans?

David Lyons: 24:10

Of course.

Rob Wilson: 24:12

Exactly yeah.

David Lyons: 24:13

Well, if we're there, if you want to bow us out.

Wendy Lyons: 24:16

Well, Rob, thank you for sharing this very interesting case. Great job on solving it after more than a decade.

Rob Wilson: 24:23

It really goes to Chris and Dave. At the beginning they laid the groundwork. Like I said, I showed you the work. You know they have 400 pages, I have 35. So it, you know they figured it out, but at time was on my side, like Dave said. So, yeah, all the credits to them.

Wendy Lyons: 24:38

Well, and ultimately, I think it comes back to what you said teamwork, yeah.

Rob Wilson: 24:41

And it's yeah. One thing we've learned about cold cases is and again I was thankful for being there at the scene. Even though I wasn't a primary, I picked up knowledge. I listened to Dave because it's so difficult picking up a case you know nothing about a cold case.

Rob Wilson: 24:57

I mean, there's so many questions that aren't in here and they may not be relevant, but you don't know until you go back and figure it out. It's like, oh, and you spent 10 days, two weeks finding that answer and it's like this was crap and the original detective probably knew it but knew it not to be important enough to put it in the case file. So you have to do a lot of rework that runs into dead ends on once you don't know about, but on this one I had an elementary knowledge of the case and that really helped get it going.

Wendy Lyons: 25:23

It goes to show you. That's why it's important to have that teamwork and you know, setting in that bay, like you said, with everyone together, you at least picked up on some things that that maybe otherwise you wouldn't have known or wouldn't have been in the case files.

Rob Wilson: 25:35

Absolutely.

Wendy Lyons: 25:36

Well, thank you again for coming to join us, and we can't wait to have you back on your next one.

David Lyons: 25:41

Looking forward to it always yeah. Thanks again, it's always fun to reminisce on some of that stuff. I hope the audience didn't get too bored with that, but it is. But it is fun and but I think most of our listeners, like I said before, that's what they're interested in is what's that's really like to work with the everyday life Exactly.

Rob Wilson: 25:58

No, it is, it's a, and that was a good thing about my units Like we knew when it was time to work hard and we knew when it was time to play hard. Sure, you know, and you have to have that balance and everybody was on the same page and you work three days straight and there's not a joke, told you know, and then you can take a breath and have some fun.

David Lyons: 26:18

Exactly Well. Again, thank you a bunch. Absolutely Good deal and please tell your friends Lock. Judy.