Lou Anna Red Corn Part 1 | The Role of the Commonwealth's Attorney

Join the conversation with Lou Anna Red Corn, whose esteemed career as the retired Fayette County Commonwealth's Attorney unveils the solemn duty of upholding justice. Lou Anna takes us from the formidable beginnings of her first death penalty case to the impactful transition under the guidance of her predecessor, Ray Larson. Experience the rare insights from her heritage with the Osage Nation and its influence on her perspective in legal proceedings, both past and present. We navigate through the deep-seated responsibility that comes with prosecuting crimes, particularly the harrowing child sexual abuse cases, and the evolution of court security that has shaped the legal landscape we know today.

Lou Anna Red Corn's reflections shed light on the Commonwealth Attorney's office's intricacies, highlighting the demanding yet vital task of supervising prosecutors and overseeing death penalty cases amidst a statewide execution hiatus. The episode celebrates the legacy of figures like Mike Malone, whose meticulous work ethic has left an indelible mark on the pursuit of justice. As Lou Anna reminisces on her career path and the ascension of women in Kentucky's legal system, she illustrates the mentorship's profound influence and the symbolic handover to Kimberly Henderson Baird.

In this episode, we also explore the pivotal advancements in law enforcement programs and victim advocacy initiatives. From the conception of a special victims unit to the transparent application of Giglio guidelines, Lou Anna speaks to the dedicated efforts ensuring the integrity of the justice system. As we look at the community engagement strides and the innovative approaches to Crime Victims' Rights Week, you'll gain an appreciation for the collaborative spirit essential in advocating for those who have endured the unimaginable. Lou Anna's tenure, culminating in her retirement and the passing of the torch, rounds out our discussion, setting the foundation for a new era of justice in Fayette County.

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Transcript

Lou Anna Red Corn: 0:00

I can remember my first death penalty case, and it was with Ray Okay it was William Bennett. He was charged with murdering Judge Angelucci's son, Joseph.

David Lyons: 0:11

Right.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 0:11

And Joseph was serving an involuntary hospitalization warrant on William Bennett and as Joseph was taking him into custody, Bennett got his gun and shot and killed him taking him into custody.

Wendy Lyons: 0:27

Bennett got his gun and shot and killed him. Warning the podcast you're about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast. Luanna Redcorn, part 1, the Role of the Commonwealth's Attorney. Welcome to the Murder Police Podcast. I am Wendy.

David Lyons: 1:06

And I'm David.

Wendy Lyons: 1:07

We have with us tonight a very special guest, Ms Luanna Redcorn, retired Fayette County Commonwealth Attorney. Thank you so much for coming to be with us this evening, Luanna.

David Lyons: 1:20

Wendy thank you so much for inviting me, and you too, David, no thanks for coming. This is like a reunion to some extent. You too, David, no thanks for coming. This is like a reunion to some extent of if we went down the road on the things that we did together back when.

David Lyons: 1:27

I was doing your honeydew list as an assistant Commonwealth attorney. We'd be all night, but I'm excited to have you. I think, like I said, people will learn what a Commonwealth attorney does or a DA does in some detail, but I think the big thing we're going to be able to talk about tonight is your heritage with the Osage Nation. Am I saying that correctly?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 1:46

Yes, you are Okay, good deal.

David Lyons: 1:48

And especially on the heels of the movie the Killers of the Flower Moon and the historical knowledge that you have on that. This is a true crime podcast and we can dive in and talk about some murders that were solved and unsolved, and maybe why, which is probably just as more important. So thank you.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 2:05

My pleasure.

Wendy Lyons: 2:07

Well, I guess let's start. I would like for our listeners to hear, louina, how did you get involved in what you do or what you did, I should say and what brought you to that position? Had you always had an interest in being a Commonwealth attorney?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 2:27

an interest in being a Commonwealth attorney. Well, no, not always. But like any Commonwealth attorney, I'm an attorney, of course, to begin with, and I started practicing law in 1984. And I was a public defender for a couple years before I became an assistant Commonwealth attorney. But once I got a taste for criminal law and saw what it was like to be a public defender which is a fine profession, and I really enjoyed that, I did that in eastern Kentucky, but I had an opportunity to move to the other side to become a prosecutor, and so I applied for a job with Ray Larson in Fayette County and that would have been in 1987, and he hired me and the rest is sort of history for me.

Wendy Lyons: 3:09

Yeah, and we've had Ray on a few times early on. When we first got started and I just have to say it was always an evening of laughs. There was always after Ray would leave, we still were laughing about something he had said or done.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 3:21

Well, I don't know that I'd call Ray funny all the time, but Ray was an exceptional person and certainly an exceptional Commonwealth's attorney.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 3:31

And you know, when he passed away, that was a really that was a very tough morning and I remember Luke and I sat down and composed Luke is my husband and we sat down and composed an announcement and announced on our office Facebook page that Ray had passed and just had an opportunity to in just, you know, in a few paragraphs, describe who he was. And he was a prosecutor's prosecutor and in many ways defined for this state what a Commonwealth's attorney is. And Ray did a lot of incredible things in Fayette County that I think most people have no idea, and I'll just mention one of them. And I don't know where your, if you know how many of your listeners are here in Fayette County, but there was a time when the only place you had to wear a seatbelt in the Commonwealth of Kentucky was Fayette County. Oh my, when you got to the county line, you had to wear a seatbelt in the Commonwealth of Kentucky was Fayette County.

David Lyons: 4:25

Oh my.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 4:26

When you got to the county line, you had to put your seatbelt on, you had to buckle up, and that was all the doing of Ray Larson.

David Lyons: 4:34

I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 4:36

I'm not either, and now the rest of the country has fallen in line. Yeah, thanks to Ray. Thanks to Ray. Yeah, no doubt. Thanks to Ray. Thanks to Ray, yeah, no doubt.

David Lyons: 4:42

And you're right, he learned everything when he called himself Ray the DA, that's right, it was Ray the DA, ray the DA. Yeah, for sure. Going back to the public defender thing I think I knew that, but maybe not when you did the and let's get this straight too is that I never shoot them down. We tease with defense attorneys all the time, but I think people who have listened to this show understand that there's actually a relationship there.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 5:04

That's a lot of mutual respect Right. Well, we're all part of the criminal justice system.

David Lyons: 5:08

That's it, and seeking the truth Right. So who can knock that? That's a big part of it too. When you did spend that time, do you think that prepared you to go to the other side, to the prosecution side, and what do you think motivated you to jump?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 5:19

Well, I think it definitely, it was helpful, I mean it could not have been helpful to to approach it in a different way, to see defendants, um, people that are accused, as people. I mean, they're, they're just people like everybody else and, uh, some of them have things that brought them to the point that caused them to commit a crime. So, yes, in that, in that regard, I think it was helpful. What caused me to to change what I was doing? Um, I prefer to do something that approached it from a different side, to work on behalf of victims, to work on behalf of public safety and on behalf of my community, which is different than the role of a public defender, because you're representing just an individual.

David Lyons: 6:06

Sure, yeah, both of them are super valuable. I would never make fun of that too. So tell more about your career once you onboarded with the Commonwealth Attorney's Office. You've already indicated that Ray might have been a little more difficult to work for. He wasn't difficult to work for, but he was a taskmaster, for sure.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 6:25

I mean, he had high standards and he expected us to abide by those standards. In fact, my husband, luke Morgan, also worked for Ray as a prosecutor for a period of time, and so you know Ray had standards, but they were all good. They were All really really good. We had to be on time and he would be standing by the elevator when we got there and if we were late he would tap his watch.

Wendy Lyons: 6:51

Yeah, there we go. I would have never survived there. No, you wouldn't. Yeah, in more ways than one, I know you're right.

David Lyons: 6:59

In more ways than one. Yeah, it was funny, I remember and we'll get off the Ray thing in a minute but people that listen to Love Ray too. But when I was up in the unit he really didn't like plea bargains. I mean his thing was let the community decide.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 7:14

Yes, let's go to trial on murder cases especially.

David Lyons: 7:16

I don't know if you remember I don't think it was ever with you but I will say this that, looking back, that I think there were two or three times where an assistant comrade would invite me over to meet with Ray, and that's what the meeting was about. And I guess they thought if I was in the room maybe it would edge the bed a little bit or he wouldn't say no. It was actually kind of cute and Ray would look over at me and look at them and say, yeah, we're going to trial.

David Lyons: 7:38

So it was those are the things you remember. Well, talk more about once you onboarded and you got there. What was that experience like and what kind of casework did you start with and end up doing?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 7:47

Well, you know, I was in the office for 35 years, so it changed a lot over the period of time Started in 1987 and did just, you know, kind of routine cases, lots of drug cases. There are always a lot of drug cases in the prosecutor's office. Probably 30% of the cases that we have in the office are possessions or drug trafficking cases. And then when you throw in the cases that are tied to alcohol or drugs, like thefts and forgeries and things like that, it goes up a lot more. So doing those kind of cases and then over time with experience, started doing more serious cases, including sexual assaults and homicides and things like that.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 8:34

One thing that while I was in the office Ray really pushed me to do was child sexual abuse cases and he just thought that those were really important cases and I guess I kind of think hopefully he thought I would be good for those kinds of cases and really encouraged me, took me. In fact, he and I and some others went to Huntsville, Alabama, to a place where they had just started a thing called the Children's Advocacy Center. Oh, wow.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 9:03

The district attorney down there, a guy named Bud Kramer started the Children's Advocacy Center concept in like 1989. And Ray wanted to know more about it, and so we got in the car and drove down there and that was the beginning of our children's advocacy center, the bluegrass yep, learned something there.

David Lyons: 9:21

I wasn't aware that that was the history of that too. So a powerful thing and powerful work it I. I tell people all the time that that's an ugly that we don't hear about, and I've always said that. Uh, in my opinion, most people really don't learn how much of what we have unless they're seated on a grand jury. That's true, and then you walk out with your eyes opened.

David Lyons: 9:41

It's really horrific, Really commendable work for sure. Way too much of it. Way too much of it, by the way too, just for the audience knows too, we're talking about the Commonwealth Attorney's Office, which is in circuit court. Yes, so the crimes there are going to be of a higher level than what we in Kentucky would call district court.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 9:59

Yes.

David Lyons: 9:59

Which would handle the misdemeanors and things like that. Right yeah.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 10:02

We have two elected prosecutors in Kentucky in every county, every county, and I think there's 120 counties, 120. 120 counties, there's 120 counties, 120. 120 counties. Each one has an elected county attorney who does misdemeanors traffic, usually represents the fiscal court, juveniles, sometimes family court. So you have that person. And then there are 57 elected commonwealth attorneys and the commonwealth attorneys represent the people in circuit court and the Commonwealth's attorneys represent the people in circuit court. And these circuits can be a single county, like we have here in Fayette County or Jefferson Warren, the bigger counties, and then out in the state some of these circuits are four counties.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 10:45

So you've got a prosecutor, that's got to travel to four different counties to work, and so that's kind of the idea of the circuit. Remember that's what circuit judges did they traveled the circuit.

David Lyons: 10:56

Sure.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 10:56

To go from one county to another to hold court.

David Lyons: 11:00

There we go Cool stuff, a little tidbit of history that people don't have. Yeah, I knew that.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 11:06

So our Commonwealth's attorneys prosecute felonies after the cases are held or waived to the grand jury. And in Kentucky everybody has a constitutional right to be indicted by the grand jury for a felony. It's in the Constitution. But an individual can waive that right and the case can go straight to the grand jury without a hearing. That's the hearing we have in district court, called the preliminary hearing or probable cause hearing.

David Lyons: 11:31

Right, Did several of those too. Speaking of the county attorney, we'll give a shout out to Angela Evans. Yes, she's our elected county attorney.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 11:37

She's been there since 2018, I think, yeah, is that right? No 2020?.

David Lyons: 11:43

Yeah, 2020.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 11:44

22. Wow, time's getting away from us. I don't have a concept of time.

Wendy Lyons: 11:50

Wow, she's been there yeah exactly.

David Lyons: 11:51

Well, when you're married to Wendy, you lose a concept of time.

Wendy Lyons: 11:54

Anyway, it's just all that love. It just embraces you. Every day is a holiday, like sweet honey.

David Lyons: 12:00

I had another four-letter word in mind, but we'll leave that alone.

Wendy Lyons: 12:02

Yeah, we'll leave that out.

David Lyons: 12:03

But I ran into her last week at the St Patrick's Day Festival and so get together and get to lunch. I'm interested to hear how she's doing with that. So the challenge is on the county attorney side of it too. So getting back to it again is we're in the deep end of the pool with the casework and everything, and you talked about how you work your way into different case levels and sexual abuse. But since it's a true crime podcast that focuses on murder, do you still remember your first murder trial or case? I should say case, maybe you should ask no I should have looked that up before I came.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 12:37

I can remember my first death penalty case, and it was with ray.

David Lyons: 12:41

Okay, it was william bennett um.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 12:43

He was charged with murdering uh judge angelusi's son, joseph right and um joseph was serving a involuntary hospitalization warrant on William Bennett and as Joseph was taking him into custody, Bennett got his gun and shot and killed him, and so that was again, of course, a horrible, horrible circumstance, but that was my first death penalty case, and I tried that with Ray in the old circuit court, which is now Limestone Hall.

David Lyons: 13:15

Yes, exactly yeah, the old court building where the men's and women's restrooms were on separate floors.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 13:21

I remember.

David Lyons: 13:21

I was at a grand jury one time and I got done and I said, hey, if y'all want to do an investigation. They said what?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 13:25

And I said find out whose idea it was to not have the restrooms on the same floor, so I always leave them on my home. Yeah, that's right. I never go to an event over there and I don't think about some of the stuff that happened in that building.

David Lyons: 13:36

Oh, it's packed full of history I mean really when you think about it, and sat in there many a time out there and those little, those little hallways with the marble floors and stuff like that, so well, I'm sure it was the people's court, though wendy I mean I would.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 13:48

It would be nice to know that the judges used to sit out back of that courthouse and when you walked into courthouse you could talk to the judges. They were right there Judge Keller, judge Grant, judge Tackett, they were all out there. And now of course, I understand the reason for security, but now the judges are on the back side of the courthouse. They come in the back way through Sally port and we don't get to see them in that way and I think you lose something when those things happen. Like I said, I understand it's for their safety and protection, but yeah, it would have been a different time.

Wendy Lyons: 14:29

Yes, very different, I'm sure through all the years you know. David asked which was your. If you remember the first, I'm sure through doing so many of these, you probably have several that just still really stick with you, whether it was sexual assaults on children or adult victims. How do you manage to cope with that? I'm sure, like I said, it doesn't go away, it just do you. I guess you've had so many and I'm not downplaying any one over the other, but I'm sure that's really stuck with you. Some of those that you don't forget, some of them.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 15:05

Yeah, you'd be surprised, david. You probably experienced this. I don't drive through Lexington on any given day that I don't drive by a place and think about someone died there.

David Lyons: 15:15

Absolutely or this happened there.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 15:20

So, yes, I mean it's more of something that I don't think about, but then when an opportunity happens, I remember this happened at this corner or this happened in this park.

David Lyons: 15:32

She's been in a car for years now where. I can look up and say well, that was this, that was that. It just burns in your brain, that stuff doesn't leave.

Wendy Lyons: 15:41

And we always say wonder who lives there now? Likely they have no idea if it's been resold or re-rented, and I just think how crazy that would be to live in one of those places and not having known because we've covered some pretty gruesome cases on here and knowing the details it's just like wow, these people have no idea what happened in that house.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 16:07

Yes, you're absolutely right about that. You're right about that.

David Lyons: 16:09

It's probably better they don't. Yes, it's one reason we don't do addresses and things on the show. We don't go that specific, it's just not necessary Good deal. So the first death penalty case which, by the way, in Kentucky has been on the freeze thing for a while, based on the method and everything. I don't know if that'll shake loose or not, but not either here nor there for today. Moving forward, tell us more about how much more time you spent before you got to be the Commonwealth attorney and to Ray the DA's place.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 16:37

Well, we had a great prosecutor he's still there part-time in our office named Mike Malone.

David Lyons: 16:42

Yes, mike, big shout-out to Mike.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 16:44

Yeah, big shout-out to Mike Malone. He was Ray's first assistant for many years and then Mike retired, meaning he left full time in 2006. He later came back as our Commonwealth's detective and now he's an assistant again so he can go to court, because actually one of the death penalty cases that Mike tried back in the day Halverson and Willoughby is still working its way through the court system and so we put Mike back on as an assistant Commonwealth's attorney so he could argue pleadings motions in that case two years ago. But anyway, when Mike retired in 2006, Ray appointed me as his first assistant and that just meant that my primary job was to supervise the attorney. So at any given time the Commonwealth Attorney's Office in the last probably 15 years has had between 15 and 19, 14 and 19 assistant, full-time assistant Commonwealth attorneys, and so my job as first assistant was to supervise the prosecutors primarily.

David Lyons: 17:52

Okay, cool beans, neat stuff. And again Mike Malone that's good that he's back. That makes sense because I stay in contact with a victim's son on the Leonard White case and I just took him a saddle a couple weeks ago and he said Mike was actually out there at the farm and they sat and talked for about an hour. That's how this is.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 18:13

Yes, these go on for decades. They go on for decades and you're right, he's also done some post-conviction work regarding Goforth.

David Lyons: 18:19

Yeah, exactly yeah, so that one's still working its way through.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 18:22

These cases don't end until the defendant is no longer with us.

David Lyons: 18:27

That's true? Yeah, exactly so fascinating stuff. Fascinating Especially, like I said, because her son really talks highly of Mike. So I mean he has a lot of respect for Mike, which I'm not surprised. We used to just give Mike a hard way to go because he had probably the nastiest office, well disorganized office.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 18:44

Wow, yes, I think messy, not nasty. No, not nasty. Gosh David, piles of stuff. How insulting.

David Lyons: 18:54

Well, nasty gosh, piles of stuff.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 18:55

Well, I'm not talking about hot dog, relish and mustard could have been in there, but yeah, it had his own way of organizing things.

David Lyons: 18:58

Let's just put it that way very meticulous filing system so sounds like it yeah, those were good times, so good deal. So, as a as as the first assistant, then you're supervising other people. Yes, are you actually? Do you have a role in hiring at that point?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 19:11

oh, yeah, I have an input Ray was always big on if somebody left, he wanted you to find their replacement. People would move on, and he wanted quality people in there, so I kept doing that until then he retired in 2016, which was a good day for me, but it was a sad day for the community, and I know it was kind of a sad day for Ray too, because he loved what he did.

David Lyons: 19:40

Oh yeah, I think that was—he dealt with it, but I think that's probably the best way to put it he dealt with it but. I think it probably broke his heart a little bit having to walk away from it.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 19:58

Well, and he had the Tuesday night night I believe it was crime night which was before we even started podcasting. So it's kind of like a live podcast at his office over there library, oh, later yeah, he started in his office, though, really yeah, he had an office over on broadway. Yeah, I remember that.

Wendy Lyons: 20:06

Yeah, I never went to one there, but I did go to the ones at the library and and you know he would same thing as do bring on the detective that worked it and it was just really so neat and you could see he was loving what he did. He was just beaming when he was up there talking.

David Lyons: 20:23

So you get made kind of like the mafia you get picked, she got made, you get made.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 20:27

I was appointed kindly appointed by Governor Bevin.

David Lyons: 20:31

Okay, gotcha.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 20:32

And of course Ray was very encouraging to Governor Bevin to appoint me. I have no doubt that probably is a good light word for that too, and so I was pleased to be appointed, and then I ran in 2018.

David Lyons: 20:48

Gotcha, let's talk about this then. When you got appointed, let's talk about women in that role in Kentucky. Was there anybody else at the time?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 20:56

There were Not many. Remember I told you there's 57 circuits, so there's 57 Commonwealth's attorneys and I think when I got appointed, that made nine women.

David Lyons: 21:06

Oh, there we go.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 21:08

So eight or nine other women out in the state had been elected Commonwealth's attorney before I was, but I was the first here in Fayette County.

David Lyons: 21:15

Gotcha, during this long career with being an attorney, did you see any changes in the system or the peers or anything with regard to women in the law industry? What was it like when you started?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 21:30

Well, you know, I'm an old now. It was 1984. It's hard to believe it was 1984. It's hard to believe it was 1984. There were a fair number of women in law school in 1984, actually. But not many women judges okay in 1984. So that was where I think many of us really felt it being in the courtroom, being mistaken for non-lawyers, sitting until the end of the dock, when the judge would finally look at you and go little lady, I didn't realize you were a lawyer.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 22:02

I'm sorry, we'll call your case now. That wasn't in Fayette County. That wasn't in Fayette County, that was out in the state. So women judges is where we, I think, have made tremendous progress.

David Lyons: 22:16

I might be wrong, but here in Fayette County it's kind of an overwhelming number?

Wendy Lyons: 22:20

Yeah, there's quite a few of them.

David Lyons: 22:23

There's been a coup d'etat. And I ask that when people because if you talk to women in the law enforcement industry even as early back as the 80s and 90s, you'd be surprised in places the real difficulty that they have and there still is some. I'm not going to say that it's round at the corner, but there's people I work with now that when they came on with certain agencies they were told the first day you understand, I didn't want you here and the fight starts from there. So I think it's improved, but still got some work to do. Still got some work to do, especially with women in roles of authority or what we perceive as authority for sure Leadership.

David Lyons: 23:01

That's it, that's it for sure. Well, good deal. Where do we go from there? So you got the keys.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 23:06

So I got appointed and it was an adjustment obviously. I mean I really enjoyed it. But being second in command is not the same as being in command.

David Lyons: 23:18

True.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 23:19

And I wasn't Ray Larson and so I felt that I should try to do it the way— I wanted to do it. It wasn't better, it was just different, and so we made some changes. We never left the critical mission you know that everybody gets treated the same under the same circumstances and so the critical mission always stayed the same, but the way that we did it changed a little bit, and those are some of the things that I think I'm most proud of during the time that I was there.

David Lyons: 23:51

Yeah, true. What are some of the programs that stick out in your mind before you were appointed and through your appointment that the office completed?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 23:59

Well, when Ray was Commonwealth's attorney, this is perfectly understandable. This is no criticism of him, because when we first started we had when I very first started in that office, I think we maybe had eight attorneys and so everybody had to do everything you had to do thefts and rapes and homicides, thefts and child sexual abuse and homicides and I can tell you that not every prosecutor is cut out to do sexual assault, domestic violence and child sexual abuse. They're just not.

David Lyons: 24:33

Right.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 24:34

And those victims deserve a prosecutor. That's cut out for the job, if one is available. I mean, in smaller offices you can't do that, but we could do it. And so we started a special victims unit and we had—you volunteered for those positions and we had you volunteered for those positions. You weren't told or, as my staff said, you weren't voluntold to be on that team.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 24:56

You volunteered for that and we had and some of them are still there but great people that wanted to do that job, whose heart was in representing domestic violence victims, sexual assault victims and children. And these are very difficult cases. They are emotional, they are very time-consuming and sometimes the results are not great. So you just really have to have the heart and the stomach for it, and so to me, that was one of the really important things that we did, because victims deserve that. They deserve that and had a great team. It ended up being sexual assault, domestic violence, child sexual abuse and elder abuse physical elder abuse not fraudulent elder abuse, but physical elder abuse.

David Lyons: 25:51

Yeah, we have a mutual friend in common, matt Brotherton.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 25:53

And.

David Lyons: 25:53

Matt when we used to work together when I was still on up in investigations, used to say that sometimes the conviction may not be as important as the conviction of the people working with the victim and of course I've got so much respect for Matt that it goes through the roof but the idea that we can't always control that end result. But what we can control is how close we can get to those people and offer them support and maybe look at what it takes to move their life past that in the wake of all of that.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 26:21

What a great thing.

David Lyons: 26:22

Victim advocacy programs are the best thing since sliced bread.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 26:25

Yes, Well, Ray started our victims advocacy program. In fact, we hate to keep going back to Ray, but he did so many good things. He got called to the Rose Garden at the White House for his work in victim advocacy and vehicular homicides. That was his other huge thing vehicular homicides.

David Lyons: 26:44

That's true. Yeah, I remember that too.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 26:46

But for me that was a change that I made. It was different than Ray had done, it just different.

David Lyons: 26:52

But it makes sense because I'd say that on the defense team too, the same thing would apply. Some defense attorneys would probably have a stronger lean on certain types of cases and get behind them. And it was the same thing in the police department. Is that different people? What they could do? I mean, for example, that people over in auto theft would run circles around me. Uh, it just because of the interest in it and the knowledge on it. So, and you're right, I think the victims deserve the best that we can give them on that.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 27:19

So what a what a good thing and then let's see, I like the other thing, a couple other things that I did that I thought were were really helpful was, um, so you know, we talk about the way that things have changed a lot during time, and so I got elected in 2018 and in 2020, george Floyd was murdered, okay, so part of my tenure was during COVID and and also just during a time when there was a lot of unrest here in Fayette County, even, I mean, and in Jefferson County and all over the country, but we felt it here and a lot of something that I had been working on I'd actually been working on it, but we actually pushed through on and that was matters regarding what we call Giglio.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 28:15

Matters regarding what we call Giglio, which is a way of making sure that prosecutors tell defense attorneys about problems regarding particular officers. Okay, and I say the word problems, it's really more about reports or complaints that have been filed against an officer regarding certain types of things that might be related to following policy, dishonesty, things like that. It's not because they drove their car home or out of county or something, but significant things that should be disclosed. Let me just step back and say I have the greatest respect for law enforcement. I wouldn't have done this work all these years if I didn't. But just like prosecutors, the police are people too 100%.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 28:59

And so when someone does something that calls their integrity into question and it might have a bearing on their testimony, we need to tell that that's not my position. That's the position of the United States Supreme Court and the Kentucky Supreme Court, and so we established a very clear guidelines about contacting the police department and making a written request for that information and turning it over when it when it came.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 29:31

It was a heavy lift, um, but the police department was completely on board, um, they wanted that, they wanted to to show the good work that they do, sure, and wanted to. If there was a problem, they wanted to know where it was and uh, so that was. Um, I'm proud of that, I do, I feel that I'm I don't like the fact that that exists. Yes, I would like for us to have meticulous prosecution and prosecutors and law enforcement, but, like I said, we're people that's.

David Lyons: 30:06

that's an understatement. And in george floyd was probably the uh, the largest watershed movement in the history of American policing. We're in the middle of a historic period right now. I call it a renaissance, and those are not always pretty. And one thing I've, because I travel a lot, and one thing I saw over the last few years too, is that more prosecutor's offices did that, yes, where, instead of waiting, you had to initiate.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 30:31

We, we are on the right, we're doing it, we are forward thinking, we are we're doing the right, the work and in the end it makes the industry better.

David Lyons: 30:40

I'm a hundred percent, because it's diamonds are made from pressure and then I'm a big believer that what's going on right now is that we're we're exorcising some of the last demons out of the industry.

David Lyons: 30:51

And I don't mean demons, as in individuals although I met a couple that might be but what I'm getting at is that we're pushing. I think when we start doing those things and they're painful, I can tell you for police body-worn cameras, wearing them is painful because you have that first integrity thing and then you learn that it actually benefits you in your job. That's the thing with body-worn cameras.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 31:12

That happened during my term too.

David Lyons: 31:14

Exactly, Body-worn cameras Once they get past that and they start getting the wins. They get that, but there's that initial thing of like, well, I should just be believed. And then we're back to reality.

Wendy Lyons: 31:24

Well, we can't just be believed. Well, I think there's that level of accountability as well 100%, and it helps because not only is it always geared towards the officer doing something wrong, but if you have a suspect that's being arrested, who's saying one thing that it's nice to have that camera to justify the truth, I mean you can't lie with the camera there's no truth. So, regardless of whoever is at fault or not at fault, or being justified or not justified, it benefits both sides.

David Lyons: 31:52

That's it it. Does we all win from that? Yes, so I think that that was a good thing. And I think that I'm the first one who will say the industry continues to need work, and that's how we work on it. We don't just say transparency, we make it transparent and big deal. I'd be very proud of that too.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 32:08

Thank you, very commendable Thank you Because.

David Lyons: 32:10

I love the industry enough that I want to see it get better.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 32:12

Yeah, we all do.

David Lyons: 32:13

I mean I'm passionately in love with it. What else you got?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 32:17

Well, those are just to me.

Wendy Lyons: 32:19

So there's lots of other things, you know there's lots more to it, of course.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 32:22

Those are the highlights for me. I will say that we really again different than Ray, not better, but really, you know broadened our crime victims collaboration with all of the agencies. Our office had always hosted a crime victims rights week and I brought in that to have everyone be able to highlight their program and recognize their victims, and that was the police department, sheriff department, county attorney's office and the US attorney's office, because these are all agencies that we work with and each of them have spectacular victims programs.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 33:06

The sheriff has Amanda's Center and has done a lot for domestic violence victims. The police have really stepped up their victims advocacy. They have bilingual advocates on board, which I think is super helpful in this community, and, of course, the US Attorney's Office and the police a county attorney, so that was great because we got to include everybody in that. And, like I said, not better, just different.

David Lyons: 33:37

I love it. And again, less likely somebody will fall through the cracks.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 33:42

Exactly.

David Lyons: 33:43

And Sheriff Witt, she has done, she's driven that train on the domestic violence really well for a long, long time.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 33:50

Right. And then one other thing I'm reminded of is just community involvement. So when I became Commonwealth's attorney, one of the things I said is you have to be involved in something in the community. We feel like we do community work because that's what our work is right. We show up every day and we represent the community and public safety. But it was more like I don't care what it is, but it's got to be something extra. So people did all kinds of things. Some people worked with Crimestoppers, some people did reading programs. One of my prosecutors did coach the girls on the run.

David Lyons: 34:28

Oh, wow.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 34:28

I mean, because that's a I mean things that you can do to encourage youth discourages other bad behaviors.

David Lyons: 34:36

Yeah, we won't grab a hope. Maybe another night we'll come back. That's a huge thing that I'm pretty passionate about too. But you nailed it I mean, you did summarize it that if we're going to fix some of the violent problems we have right now, we got to go upstream.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 34:46

I mean, that's a little, you know, I know that's a thing. And so one of the things I did was, out of my own pocket and my husband's pocket, we bought really nice superhero costumes. I mean, did you know that, Locke, you could spend $300 on a? The really expensive one was Thor.

David Lyons: 35:11

The.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 35:11

Thor costume was super expensive, but they looked so good and so I had my prosecutors all decked out Again. They had to kind of, it was a voluntold sort of deal. But we had Batman, we had Wonder Woman, we had a police officer that was the Black Panther. We had the Captain America woman, spider-man. They love Spider-Man and we would go to community, we, they, we and they would go to community events and children loved it. Now I know that Wonder Woman is not a prosecutor and neither is Spider-Man a prosecutor, but they are forces for good.

David Lyons: 35:55

Yes.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 35:56

And I just really felt that we all need forces for good in our lives, something that we can believe in and depend on.

David Lyons: 36:05

Right.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 36:06

And the prosecutors, I think, enjoyed it every bit as much as the children did. So that was goofy, I know, but something that I was really proud of, and I looked on Kimberly Henderson Baird's website recently and I saw that they're still doing it Good good yeah, because you can come off looking like a hammer too. You can and it takes. Let me tell you what. It takes a lot, because you know, spider-man is a shorter man, um, and he has to wear leotards.

David Lyons: 36:35

Yeah, there's a comfort level I wouldn't have.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 36:36

So I'm thinking of you, david, I think they're wanting you to come on board because we could always use a backup spider-man. Yeah, and people people.

David Lyons: 36:45

People would need therapy. Probably if they, if it would be something they couldn't unsee without medication and hypnosis. Probably too. So probably we'll pass on.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 36:54

You know what the children would love it. They would love you, and they're not looking at anything else but that mask. Yeah, too funny so those are just some of the things that I did as Commonwealth's attorney that I was proud of, yeah.

Wendy Lyons: 37:13

And it's nice, like you say, for them to see you all not in that role of always just prosecuting, or always. You know a lot of people, don't? They think of that as a bad or a negative light. You're being prosecuted, and so it's nice to see that whole department coming out and doing something for children.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 37:26

This is our community too.

David Lyons: 37:28

I mean we don't just work here, we live here.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 37:32

And we're going into communities. Many of these communities are communities that are experiencing violence, and we want them to know that we're with them. I mean, we want to help, we want them to live in a place where they feel safe too.

David Lyons: 37:47

That's the whole name of the game, right, the whole name of the game, for sure. So how long total were you in that?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 37:54

I was the Commonwealth's attorney for six years.

David Lyons: 37:57

Six years, good deal. And so when did you depart?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 38:00

I retired in 2022. And, just as Ray had done for me, I wrote a letter to our governor, andy Beshehear, and asked him to appoint my first assistant, who's Kimberly Henderson Baird. And he did, and Kimberly became the second woman Commonwealth's attorney and the first black woman Commonwealth's attorney in the Commonwealth.

David Lyons: 38:21

Wonderful person too, by the way, wonderful person a great prosecutor.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 38:24

She also has a passion for child sexual abuse cases and I'm just really very proud of her and I'm glad for this community. She is running on a post.

David Lyons: 38:36

Yeah, I have no doubt about that and she has done great. I mean, I can't see any burps or anything from now that I'm a consumer of police and justice services.

Wendy Lyons: 38:45

Right, that's right.

David Lyons: 38:47

We start consuming them too.

Wendy Lyons: 38:49

Well, I have to ask, ask, what brought you to that point to decide to, to finally retire. What do you? Was it just kind of it was approaching that? Or did you wake up one day and say, you know, I just kind of want to relax now?

Lou Anna Red Corn: 39:01

but well, I'm not relaxing. Um, I want to do um well, two things. One, you know, um kimberly's been in that office for my gosh over 27 years, going on 30. She's to a point she could retire. What a tragedy that would have been for her to retire and not become a lost attorney right.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 39:22

What a tragedy it would have been for our commonwealth. You know this is a discussion for even another time and not necessarily on this show, but there is a huge lack of people of color in district attorney's offices as elected district attorneys and prosecutors, and to me that's important.

David Lyons: 39:44

It is.

Lou Anna Red Corn: 39:45

It's important and so it would have been a tragedy for me to hang on in that job and Kimberly to retire when she has all the skills and to be Commonwealth's attorney. So that was one of my motivators, and then the other one is that there's just some other things that I wanted to do. I'm from Oklahoma. That's where I was born, that's where my parents grew up, that's where my heart born, that's where my parents grew up, that's where my heart is, and I'm a citizen of the Osage Nation. That's where our nation is and I wanted to be there. I wanted to be more involved in tribal government and affairs and to be more involved with my family, my extended family, who's all still there. So you can't do that when you're working full time as a prosecutor, going to crime scenes at night, going to court still and doing all the other things that are required of a Commonwealth's attorney.

Wendy Lyons: 40:41

So those things went into my decision to hey, you know there's more to this story, so go find the next episode and listen.

David Lyons: 41:12

You know there's more to this story, so go find the next episode and listen can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at MurderPolicePodcastcom, where you will find show notes, transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police Podcast merch store where you can purchase a huge variety of Murder Police Podcast swag. We are also on Facebook, instagram and YouTube, which is closed caption for those that are hearing impaired. Just search for the Murder Police Podcast and you will find us. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us 5 stars and a written review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcasts. Make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop, and please tell your friends lock it down.

David Lyons: 41:53

Judy.