The Murder Police Podcast
The Murder Police Podcast
Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire! Part 4 of 4
Unlocking the secrets of deception through body language and strategic questioning—Eddie Pearson returns for the final installment of our riveting four-part series on reading what's not being said.
Your body betrays your words. Despite our best efforts to control our non-verbal communication, our physiological responses—from subtle changes in breathing to unconscious movements—reveal what we're trying to hide. Pearson breaks down how investigators identify and interpret these invaluable clues during high-stakes interviews.
"The feet are the most honest part of the body," Pearson explains, demonstrating how toe direction indicates true intentions and comfort levels. He shares a compelling real-case example where a suspect's inadvertent response to a hypothetical question about cell phone recording immediately exposed his deception. Pearson reveals how "barring"—the tension in jaw muscles resembling an animal's defensive posture—once helped a corrections officer avoid assault by recognizing this primal warning sign.
Beyond physical cues, Pearson dissects the art of strategic questioning. Learn why "what caused this to happen?" elicits more truthful responses than asking "why," how precise language prevents suspects from exploiting ambiguity, and why seemingly casual questions can crack even the most prepared liars. His insights on creating "windows" for confessions demonstrate how skilled investigators respond rather than react to shocking admissions.
Whether you're fascinated by criminal psychology, communication dynamics, or the science of truth-seeking, Pearson's decades of expertise offer valuable lessons that extend far beyond interrogation rooms. Subscribe now to access all four parts of this masterclass in reading between the lines.
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Two college kids. They had sex. She said he raped her. So I go back and I'm giving him a polygraph test. He fails the polygraph test, fails it horribly. And I ask him I gave him a piece of paper and I said draw the scene of because the sex happened in the bedroom, draw the scene of the bedroom. He draws it out and draws the little end tables and draws where the clothes are and everything I said earlier.
Eddie Pearson:You told me that when you guys first started talking, you were texting her. You were texting back and forth. Right, she's like yeah, I said when she took her clothes off. Because you said she took her clothes off. Right, yeah. So when she took her clothes off, where did she put her cell phone? She's like I don't know. I said could it have been on the table right next to the bed? Could have been. Is it possible that she recorded this entire conversation between you and her during your sexual intercourse? And he looks at me and he says well, if she did, that's illegal, because she's got to tell me she. I'm like oh, he's got.
Wendy Lyons:Liar, liar pants on fire. Body language and statement analysis with Eddie Pearson, part four of four. Pearson, part 4 of 4. Warning the podcast you're about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised.
David Lyons:These physiological and things that happen, like the chemicals that get pushed through our body, are there for a reason. They've been there forever, Hopefully. That's why we're alive again, but you can't control that. You can walk in and think you can control that, but you won't be able to. I think that's what's brilliant about it.
Eddie Pearson:So you know, a lot of times you'll ask people questions. They'll give you a referral statement. Yeah, we talked about that yesterday in a meeting. We had a meeting yesterday and we already released that information. They give you a refer back to the meeting.
David Lyons:Yeah.
Eddie Pearson:Sometimes they won't answer the questions. You ask somebody a question did you steal that watch? No, I didn't steal that watch. That's a reliable denial. It's about 90% accurate. They say I'm not the kind of person that would steal a watch. If they never answer the question, fail to answer the question a lot of times, that's need to go back and start talking about that. I was reading something the other day about years ago Amy Fisher and Joey Buttafuoco.
David Lyons:Yes, yeah, remember that whole.
Eddie Pearson:He ends up going to court and a reporter asked him, as he was going to court, are you cheating on your wife? And he said no, I'm not cheating on my wife. That was true. He wasn't cheating on his wife at the time he went to court, but he did it way before. So you know, they're like. You know well, he lied. No, he didn't lie. You asked a bad question.
David Lyons:Are you?
Eddie Pearson:cheating on your wife? No, I'm not cheating on my wife.
David Lyons:On my grave yeah.
Eddie Pearson:Yeah, yeah, not have you ever cheated.
Wendy Lyons:Have you ever, in any point or time.
David Lyons:That was the Long.
Wendy Lyons:Island Lowly.
Eddie Pearson:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, I was reading something the other day about that and they were talking about the questions that reporters are asking and I was like some of these guys ask these? I'm like y'all need to hire Eddie to teach you how to ask questions. Yeah, but there's something to that.
David Lyons:You're right, and again, it's framing that up when you have a chance, preparing before you go in, so you measure what you say, because again you don't have that much opportunity. And again when he looks and says no, I'm not cheating on my wife. I can tell right now the cognitive load decreases. That's solid truth.
Eddie Pearson:Again.
David Lyons:I'm not. And as dumb as that sounds, that's enough to have them change their behavior.
Eddie Pearson:And they'll use that as a defense, because they'll blame you for asking them. Oh, I didn't lie to you. I told you the truth.
David Lyons:Yeah. So now you call me a liar? Yeah, that's it. I'm not a liar, I just told you the gospel truth.
Eddie Pearson:One of our political individuals said I never had a sexual relationship with that woman. Yes, that was true. He never did, because that action that he had with her wasn't a relationship. And so when he was asked that question, the question that they wanted to ask him was have you ever had sexual contact with this woman in the Oval Office? Yeah, but they weren't allowed to ask that. So they said have you ever had a sexual relationship with this woman? And he said no.
David Lyons:And he was telling the truth. And do you remember the body language when he said it? Exactly, yes, that thumb.
Wendy Lyons:Yeah.
Eddie Pearson:He said no and he was telling the truth, because it wasn't a relationship, it was a sexual, but you know.
Wendy Lyons:There was an encounter, but it wasn't a relationship.
Eddie Pearson:Exactly. So my question would have been have you ever had any type of sexual contact with this woman in the Oval Office? And he'd have had to say if he'd have said no, he'd have been lying Amen. So a lot of it just depends on how you ask that question, and I've asked very bad questions before. I was like why?
David Lyons:did. I worry that Same here Nobody's perfect.
Eddie Pearson:Like, if you ask somebody do you own a blue Ford F-150 pickup truck? And they say no, what are they saying no to? Is it blue, is it a Ford, is it F-150? Or is it a pickup truck? So when I sit down and, like I said, I'll ask a question and they say no, this is my next question. They say yes, this is my next question. I try to be as specific as I can. That way, there's no wiggle room, because if there's wiggle room, they'll use it as their defense. You asked me this and I said no, and that's the truth. And now you're telling me I'm lying.
David Lyons:Yeah.
Eddie Pearson:You know well, okay, I guess I asked a bad question.
Wendy Lyons:And.
Eddie Pearson:I've said that. I say you know, yeah, you're right, that's my fault, I asked a bad question. But now that we're past that, let me ask you this, and I'll just go right back into what I want to ask them. We all slipped.
David Lyons:I remember one time I accidentally rolled off my tongue when a guy that he had shot his common-law wife and five-ringed her in the chest and she died. And I remember in the interim he didn't know that and we were talking and you know it was. I had to see if there was intentionality to it, if I could, and at one point I'm like, well, you know, people can have questions about this, the family and everything. I said the coroner, and he goes, the coroner. And I said, well, if she doesn't get better, if she doesn't get better.
David Lyons:Well, and I'm not being mean, but she passed at the scene.
Eddie Pearson:And again later.
Wendy Lyons:I'm do it.
David Lyons:I mean, you talk about body language shifting. I was like his was, then mine was. It was like inside I'm kicking my ass. I'm like I shouldn't have said that, I shouldn't have slipped.
Eddie Pearson:When you're having a conversation with somebody. If it's me and this person across having a conversation, their toes should be pointing towards me. Their belly button should be like a laser and it should pointing towards me. Their belly button should be like a laser and it should be towards me. If my toes are pointed away from the person I'm talking to, they probably don't want to talk to me or they don't have time to talk to me. Our chief Chief, lawrence Weathers. I mess with him all the time. He'd be walking down the hallway hey, chief, I need to talk to you about something and he'll stop. He's a super nice guy. I've known him my entire career. Super nice guy and he'll stop. And then I'll look down at his toes and he'll look at me and he's like ugh, because I've had this conversation with him, and he'll turn his feet towards me. He's like oh, I forgot who I was talking to. That laid your toes a point. That way you have time for me I fixed my toes, we can talk yeah, always messing with my shoulder.
Eddie Pearson:If you're having a conversation with somebody and a third person walks up and they turn their feet to a 45 degree angle, both of those individuals are involved in they're welcome to that conversation. If you're talking to someone and a third person walks up and those feet don't shift, they stay pointing towards the person you were originally talking to. The third person is not welcome in that conversation.
David Lyons:They're an exclusion, aren't they? Yeah?
Eddie Pearson:they're not welcome in that conversation.
David Lyons:Yeah.
Eddie Pearson:So you know, earlier I said the feet are the most honest part of the body. So you know, when you are having a conversation with somebody and you just kind of look down at their feet or look around or whatever during the conversation, look at their feet, see which way their toes are pointed. A lot of times people will sit like we're sitting and they'll wiggle their feet. So if you're wiggling and stuff, that's fine. I want to see, when I ask you a question and that foot stops wiggling, what did I say that caused your foot to stop wiggling and then it starts wiggling again. Whatever I said that caused that action to change. That's what I want to go back and talk to you about. Yeah, so when you see those body language cues, they start to change. It doesn't necessarily mean they're lying. You should ask yourself what caused it to change. Now I need to go back and talk about that.
David Lyons:That's a power perspective since we sat down. Is you're staying away from the land of absolutes?
Eddie Pearson:Exactly. And then we live in a world where everybody thinks it's absolutes.
David Lyons:And you see these people doing body and statement analysis on the internet and it's like it's not, and the whole goal is seeing the changes and identifying why Exactly and knowing that, whatever that was, it doesn't mean, like you said, it doesn't mean they're lying, but going back to that has merit.
Eddie Pearson:Now, there's a reason for the change. That, but going back to that has merit. Now. There's a reason for the change, that's it. You just need to ask enough questions to find out. I tell everybody. I said body language statement analysis polygraph. It's a tool to assist you in getting information from somebody, whether it's truthful information or deceptive information. I want them both. I said look at it like this you take your car to a mechanic and he has one wrench in his toolbox. You probably need a new mechanic.
David Lyons:Yeah, very much so.
Eddie Pearson:Yeah.
Eddie Pearson:So you know, if you have an investigator that's doing an interview and he has one technique, that's all he's got, then we probably need to make a shift here. You know, get some education, do this, do that, whatever. So it's all about having enough tools in your toolbox to do a good job and unfortunately, like I said earlier, we don't know what we don't know. So a lot of these detectives that I try to train and talk to, I bring a lot of this information out and they're like oh, I never thought about that and I never thought about this. I said, well, you know what Someone told me and it's one of those things, and I'll tell you a little war story here. But it's one of those things where sharing is caring. I want to give you this information because it may help you and it may save your life at some point. But if I just keep the information to myself, what's knowledge if you don't share? Knowledge is nothing if you don't share it. So I was teaching a little war story. I was teaching a class for some corrections officers and I was talking about barring B-A-R-R-I-N-G. Barring is what your dog did when I walked up to the porch. It started barking and you could see the teeth, the growl. It's called barring.
Eddie Pearson:Animals do that. Darwin talked about this in one of his books when he talked about the relationship between animals' body language and humans' body language. They're a lot alike, so a human would do the exact same thing, but they do it as a smile. So I was having a conversation with this corrections officer and I said, for instance, let's say, for instance, you're going to go into a cell and extract somebody from a cell and move them to another portion. This is the story he's telling me. They're going to do this and they're going to move him from one cell to another cell within the jail. So the corrections officer says are we going to have any issues? And the guy says, no, you're not going to have any issues for me. And he kind of smiled at him when he said it and I said, yeah, that's called barring.
Eddie Pearson:I said, when you see that, you need to look at their jaws, the inside of the jaws, right next to the ears If it's a genuine smile, you'll see creases in their eyes. On the side of their eyes you'll see a crease. That's a genuine smile. If you don't see those creases, that's a fake smile. And if you see the muscles tense up like they're grinding their teeth. That's called barring. So if you see that, you need to be extremely cautious.
Eddie Pearson:And so I was having this conversation with him. So he calls me back about six or eight months later and he's telling me the story about moving this guy and he said he did exactly what you said. He smiled and then he said I seen those muscles in his jaws tense up and the next thing I saw was his fist coming right across the front of my face. Because when I saw it I backed up, like she said, I took like two steps back and he said if I hadn't had that conversation with you, he'd have hit me right in the jaw. And I said, yeah, I said you got to be very careful. I said so. When you see that smile and those tense muscles in those jaws, you got to be very cautious. Now you'll see it in an interview or an interrogation, when someone is lying to you. Yeah, I didn't do it, I didn't do it, I didn't do it and they'll close your mouth and they'll bite down on your mouth so hard. You'll see those muscles and those tense jaw lines. They'll really, really get tight.
David Lyons:That energy's got to go somewhere. It's got to go somewhere. That's it, it's like, and it comes even when you talk about it. There we are back to that stuff you can't control In the animal kingdom, in the wild, forever showing and gritting the teeth was the first warning about who's going to come out of this and who's not. Yeah, and when dogs get into it, the first thing is the gum comes, the lips and the gums come up, yeah, and they bare the teeth and again. So here we are as human beings and super sophisticated, and we snarl.
David Lyons:Yeah beings and super sophisticated, and we snarl. Yeah, you'll see, that's what it is a snarl, so it's, it's again, you can't control that.
Eddie Pearson:It's amazing. It's amazing and you'll see things that are asymmetrical on your face, like only one side of the face will occur like a smile and I can't do it because, like I said, I'm not that good of an actor but you'll see uh, contempt a lot. One side of the face will go up um duane johnson the rock. You'll see him do like one eyebrow. I can't do it. One eyebrow goes up. That's asymmetrical, only happens on one side of the face. So when you're talking about someone, if they're expressing a uh, an emotion of, of uh, contempt, you'll see it on only one side of their face.
Eddie Pearson:There we go and so yeah yeah, and a lot of times those micro expressions. Stan walters is, he's, I've had a couple of his classes. He's absolutely amazing, but those things happen in like one 15th of a second and a lot of times I miss them because I'm looking at, I got 90 other things in my brain that I'm trying to think about, but a lot of times you know, you'll ask you know somebody a very specific question Did you put your whatever in that girl's whatever? And it was like no, and you'll see a little smile, a little contempt go up on one side of their face. I'm like, oh, that's a, that's an issue we need to talk about that. It's called duper's delight. What'd they call it? Duper's delight, duper's delight, that's what they refer to it as it sounds like an old sevent my dream.
Wendy Lyons:Sunday it's called.
David Lyons:Duper's.
Eddie Pearson:Delay, they're getting one over on you. You're like, yeah, I got one. Yeah, there we go, I got one over on him, there we go, I got one over on him.
David Lyons:Yeah, which falls into the world of narcissism.
Eddie Pearson:Yep, which is their feeding machine.
David Lyons:That's a whole other thing.
Eddie Pearson:I love talking to narcissists. I was going to say, yes, I love talking as they think they are.
David Lyons:It's their biggest vulnerability.
Eddie Pearson:Man, it's amazing that you could think of doing this. You didn't think of this yourself. You're not smart enough to, you're not? Oh well, let me tell you what I can do. I love talking to a narcissist. I can take that conversation anywhere I want to take it.
David Lyons:I think that's with serial offenders when you finally get them to pitch and roll while they're in, people call it bragging, but I think it's because now they're demonstrating their prowess and their ability to avoid you and me for a while. And it's like every time they can throw one out that we didn't have. Even though they're throwing themselves in prison a little bit longer is to them that's a win, because I've always believed I connect narcissism with evil.
Eddie Pearson:That's it.
David Lyons:I'm the center of the universe and that's it. But yeah, that's a. They are a. That that's another one. Once you can put that together again, you talk about themes and and and ways to go into the room. It's different, you, you made a good point too about how sometimes you don't have the time you'd like to have. I think I've talked about that a long time ago. For example, let's say like if you're up in the detective bureau and we have a violent crime patrol, does that fantastic work and they run that suspect down. And I remember Wendell Johnson saved a murder suspect one time, and Davis Bottoms because he's got people were going to kill him and you know big Wendell snatches him out.
David Lyons:Well, you've what ends up happening. You know very little. And he's there and you've got a little time he can be in the holdover. You've got a little time, um, but at some point fisher cut baits.
David Lyons:You're going to go down and sit down with him and you know somebody's dead and you know they died by gunfire and and, and the rest of the team is out there trying to get some of that intel. But at some point you're going to sit down and I think that reinforces why what you're talking about is so important is, in the absence of all those details, having a good interview to elicit those responses, to be quiet to let them fill the gaps and whatever. These days, if you watch, detectives are texting each other.
Eddie Pearson:You have a number two in the room, I know.
David Lyons:I know, I know I'm indifferent about that because it's again because they're watching, they're watching. But I think better than all of that is the idea that getting trained. I'd always tell people I look at the camera, don't try this at home. Kids Is you know when true crime is when they go live? This is a problem. This kids is you know when true crimers when they go live? This is a problem. This sounds easy, but you can be in big trouble by knocking on somebody's door and thinking you have the prowess of an investigator that's been trained, but not only that. At least you'll destroy the case. But that's why that's important. You don't have all of that. You know those fundamental things that I have a crime, I have a victim, I have a likely suspect and very little information. That's why it's important to do it right, yeah.
David Lyons:Because at that point the only time you're going to know it is if you can get them to tell it.
Eddie Pearson:Exactly, and a lot of times, you know, I've been in interviews and I'm like people have given me information and I was like, oh my Lord, where do I go with this?
David Lyons:Yes, I had no idea.
Eddie Pearson:You know they'll be talking. We'll be talking about stealing a watch and they're talking about a murder that they saw over here. I'm like, well, I got to get this information on this watch, but I want to talk about this murder, oh yeah. I mean so I mean, what do I? Do you know? And so I just keep talking.
David Lyons:We've uncovered. I mean, yeah, we've uncovered something like sexual abuse in the middle of it and and it's like wow, and again, you can't react to that, you can't. You almost have to act like you're filling out the paperwork buying a car.
Eddie Pearson:Well, it's funny, it's how you respond, yeah yeah, because I was talking to a guy and he was accused of sexually abusing his having sexual intercourse with his granddaughter and he finally admitted to doing it. And I was like, well, and earlier, I meant to say this earlier. Yeah, so you said you asked someone why something occurred, why they did something. I try never to ask a why question when I'm doing an interview or interrogation, because usually you have to get a defensive answer because they have to defend why they did something. So what I do is I say what caused this to happen? It's the same question, but it gives them an opportunity to blame somebody else.
Eddie Pearson:So this guy was talking about having sexual intercourse with his granddaughter and which he admitted that he did, and I said well, what caused that to happen? He's like, well, I'm trying to teach her. If someone does this or does that, she needs to let me know about this. And that was his excuse for you know, which is fine. You know I'm not agreeing with what he did. I'm saying but the reason he told me that was fine, because I just want him to tell me the information. I don't care why he did it. I'm not too concerned about his intent. They can figure all that out in court. I just want him to tell me he did it Right and how many times he did it. So if he says, yeah, I did it. So if he says, yeah, I did it because so for sex education, so later on in life, if everyone ever did this specific thing to her, she could let somebody know. It sounds like to me you're just being a good helper.
Eddie Pearson:There we go and that's it yeah, you respond instead of react and you know and you want to reach over and just choke this guy all right, like man let me show you some things in case they happen to you.
David Lyons:Yeah, yeah, when you get in prison. If this happens, to you.
Eddie Pearson:You just want to, you know yeah it's like a cartoon, putting your hand completely through the back of his head, right, yeah? And I was like but you can't like. David said you can't, you gotta you know. So you're just trying to educate her, protect her in some way, you know, give her a few experiences. If this happens, if this occurs, this occurs, this is what you need to do. And he's like yeah, that's exactly what I'm trying to do.
David Lyons:Yeah.
Eddie Pearson:So how many? How many? When did this start? When did this start? You know, yeah, and he's just telling me the whole story, and I've also interviewed people just the total of the opposite had had no care about the granddaughter at all. This guy was 63 or 64 and he was on social security and he knew that if he got convicted of a felony he would lose his social security. That was his priority.
David Lyons:Sure.
Eddie Pearson:And so once I discovered that, then I started using that theme to get him to tell me you know, I didn't want to go down that way. Do you love her, do you care? For it was a money issue. So we started talking about this money issue, okay, and so once you figure out what those emotional drivers are, just start sticking to them.
David Lyons:I've always used the analogy of finding a window to open for them.
Eddie Pearson:Yeah.
David Lyons:It's finding a window that they'll crawl through.
Eddie Pearson:Yeah, give them an excuse to admit.
David Lyons:Because I can't push them through the glass, but if I give them a window and again, that's why we respond instead of we react we kind of tacitly agree without disagreeing.
Eddie Pearson:And it takes a shitload of discipline. Oh, I've been in that room and I just want to explode on somebody. Yeah, that's the gift, and I'm like you know, you can't you know, and I'm thinking to myself well, if I do this, how much trouble am I going to get in? You're going to lose my job. Yeah, I'm going to lose my job. I might be in a cell next to this guy.
David Lyons:It's bad enough if you look at somebody and say well, you know, sometimes in a relationship women can piss us off. Pretty bad, because I know later I'm going to be in a jury and there's going to be women on the jury, yeah. And the prosecutor is going to have to help recred what the reason David said that was he needed this guy to come along. But, again, there's the window. It's man to man.
Eddie Pearson:Sometimes we get frustrated and a lot of times and I tell everybody I said you know and I've done this, and I say don't lie to them. But I have done that. I've lied to a suspect. I say now don't lie. I said because the reason why I say that is because of this, and a lot of it depends on how you ask them the question. If I go in and I say, listen, I got you on videotape stealing the watch from the store, what's the first thing this person is going to say Let me see the video.
David Lyons:Yeah.
Eddie Pearson:And you show them the. Let's say you do have a video and you show it to them. It looks like me, but that ain't me.
David Lyons:Yes, how many people watch there again? They watch themselves and are like that's not me.
Eddie Pearson:Yeah, that's not me. That's another bald-headed white gal with a beard.
David Lyons:Same clothes you're wearing, yeah yeah.
Wendy Lyons:That's not me.
David Lyons:Same tattoo on your hand. Yeah, so both of you missing the right leg.
Eddie Pearson:You know it's like yeah, that's not me, yeah, that's not me, yeah, so what I'll do is I'll go back and I'll ask a question. And I'll ask a question. Is it possible? I did this on a rape test, on a rape one time Two college kids, they had sex. She said he raped her. So I go back and I'm giving him a polygraph test. He fails the polygraph test, fails it horribly. And I ask him.
Eddie Pearson:I gave him a piece of paper and I said draw the scene of because the sex happened in the bedroom. Draw the scene in the bedroom. He draws it out and draws the little end tables and draws where the clothes are and everything I said earlier. You told me that when you guys first started talking, you were texting her. You were texting back and forth, right? She's like, yeah, I said when she took her clothes off. Because you said she took her clothes off, right, yeah, so when she took her clothes off, where'd she put her cell? He's like I don't know. I said could it have been on the table right next to the bed? Could have been. Is it possible that she recorded this entire conversation between you and her during your sexual intercourse? And he looks at me and he says well, if she did, that's illegal because she's got to tell me she'd. I'm like ah, he got.
David Lyons:You make such a good point Now legally people go nuts over this. It's been supported. We can use deception in there, but I'm like you.
David Lyons:I don't want to go to a point where we act like we're manufacturing anything, because even though the prosecutor can explain to a jury that they can do that, your credibility doesn't look that good.
David Lyons:And look at how many reversals we see eventually, or where it just looks nasty. But veiling that information. I remember one time, on a very low level thing, many years ago we were doing a project on some stupid crimes and I remember going before we interviewed somebody is that we stopped at a store and got a this is old a VHS tape and I took it and I put evidence tape around it and then put a file folder with a bunch of junk in it and when we went and sat down with this person at their house, I just laid it there and when we started, the first thing he did was I'm going to tell you right now I'm not on that tape. And in my mind I'm like, well, shit, sherlock, nobody's on that tape. But there again, I'm not mad, I'm not mad, I'm not going in and saying look, I have you, and that's that.
Eddie Pearson:I just think.
David Lyons:If people are doing that in the law enforcement world stop I don't, I don't like doing first of all, don't tell them you got your fingerprints when you ain't got their fingerprints exactly, lay the cards around, but don't do that because it'll backfire on you and it backfires on you.
Eddie Pearson:there's all credibility and it makes me feel bad personally to do it, because I know that I'm lying to him. That's it, and I'm like I just don't want to do that.
David Lyons:I didn't have problems with going in a room with murder books that weren't their murder books.
Eddie Pearson:Yeah, like three-inch binders and yeah, but I'm not going to say this is no, that's it, this is yeah. But what they see is pages of data.
David Lyons:Yeah, exactly, and they, they believe that they're in that. I didn't have a problem with that Laying fingerprint cards around, fingerprint pull prints and stuff, and I didn't do it that often. But I'm with you, eddie. I think that when you go in and you act like you materially have something you don't this is a whole other topic but you'll force a false confession. Yeah, and that's not what this is about.
Eddie Pearson:I love it, but I always ask you know, when you talk about the statement, analysis and stuff, I always ask that question is it possible?
David Lyons:Yeah.
Eddie Pearson:And, like I'll say on a rape test, if I knew that the victim had a sane exam, I'll say is it possible that your semen would come back in her vagina when that medical report comes back? Is it possible that your semen is in her vagina? No, how is that not possible? Because we never had sex Okay.
Eddie Pearson:Yeah. Or they say, well, if it comes back, I just don't know how, yeah. And they come up with all these different yeah, there's no way, because you know well I guess anything's possible. Or you know well if she did this or she did that. Wait a minute, hold on. Earlier you said this. Now you're saying. So, based on those statement analysis and based on that body language, how that stuff changed and shifts Once you get a decent working knowledge and some people can pick it up like that Some people take.
Eddie Pearson:It took me forever to do this, to try to figure this out. It took me forever to do this, to try to figure this out, and I had went through a lot of training and watched a ton of other people do interviews. I would go up to some of the cases that were closed and pull the discs and watch interviews that homicide guys did. We had Detective Chris Schoonover. You know Chris, oh yeah, great guy, amazing guy, amazing interviewer. Detective Chris Schoonover, you know great, great guy, amazing interviewer.
Eddie Pearson:I'd go up and I'd watch, um, watch some of his interviews. You know of cases he did years and years and years ago and I say I want to know how he did this. I want to know how this happened, cause you know I'd been to the Reed school a bunch of times and I've been to some since then cognitive interviewing classes and, uh, elicitation classes and stuff like this and I got a pretty good working knowledge about how it works. But before I got to that point, I'm like man, how much stuff did I miss. You know, I went to the solicitation they sent us to Roanoke, virginia, to the solicitation class, and this lady that taught it was an amazing, amazing investigator. And as I'm sitting there listening to all this stuff and trying to write notes and stuff, if I knew this five years ago this case that is bugging me maybe I could have used this technique and always go back and say, man, why didn't I learn this in the academy?
Wendy Lyons:Or why didn't I?
Eddie Pearson:do this? Or why didn't somebody say you need to go read this book and you make a?
David Lyons:good point. I don't want to go too deep. The academy, I mean. We always wait till people get close to or in investigations and say, now we got something to read. We should spend more time. I mean because they're out there doing the truth-seeking and the confirmation out there on the road, every time they stop.
Eddie Pearson:But think about this how many people that are investigators that have never been to read oh yeah, it's crazy. I'm like you know.
David Lyons:I've said before that when I started up there you didn't go to schools. You were hoping you had good mentors in front of you, and that's really not the way to approach this. We eventually got in schools, but there was no pre and I'm just a big believer that when people are getting ready to hit the road, let them have the knowledge so they can sharpen that skill.
Eddie Pearson:Yeah, and who's in a violent crime? Who's that skill?
David Lyons:Yeah. You know, in a violent crime, who's there first?
Eddie Pearson:Yeah.
David Lyons:Yeah exactly.
Eddie Pearson:I mean they should you know, in the Academy and I don't know the whole curriculum of the Academy. It's been 30 years since I was in the Academy but I don't know the whole curriculum now. But from my understanding it's it's interviews and interrogations are minimal. Sure it's it's, interviews and interrogations are minimal, oh sure you know, this is how you ask, this is how you conduct a traffic investigation. Okay, well, great. So what if there's a traffic investigation and you discover there's a dead body in the trunk?
David Lyons:Yeah.
Eddie Pearson:You might want to ask some more questions. Yeah, so I. I.
David Lyons:Or elicit some comments. I mean, there we go. All of that, I think, is valuable Because again they have the first clean I call it a clean shot at a good interview with somebody, yeah, but then, yeah, I don't want to go over it because we have a culture that says you're not ready for that.
Eddie Pearson:That's a whole other show is the police culture where we're backwards, you know and we were having a conversation that day about victims, you know, and polygraph we can actually test a victim.
David Lyons:Yeah.
Eddie Pearson:You know, there's a technique we can use and I've done it a few times. And I was reading some research the other day and they were saying, well, we don't want victims to be interviewed, we want the detective to do it, because we don't want them to repeat the trauma over and over and over and over. But there's research out there now that says no, that's exactly what we want them to do, because now it teaches them how to deal with this, because this is not going away. So you can face it, you can deal with it and you can positively move on with your life instead of trying to cover it up, act like it didn't happen.
David Lyons:It comes back to who's doing the interview. Exactly, if you're trauma-informed, then I believe without sound and don't hope one way loses their mind. If it's done correctly, there's a therapeutic event there.
Wendy Lyons:Oh yeah, and we were actually talking about that this morning with someone.
David Lyons:Yeah, Is it if it's done right there. But again, I think that whole thing and that's another man I need to bring some sane people in here and talk about that is Anita Capillo. I'm going to say her name and she's agreed to come do the show. There was an evolution in policing on how to speak to sexual assault victims and stuff, but we'll table that for another one but it's a different world.
Eddie Pearson:There's a right and wrong way to do all of it. Amen, and just like body language and statement analysis, there's a right way to do it. There's a wrong way to do it, like you said before. You know, walking in with a phone book and a rubber hose and a bright light, I mean, that doesn't work anymore. And people are. Well, you know I can negotiate with the best of them because I've watched every episode of MSNBC's Law and Order or whatever. Yeah, there we go. It's this. You know, training is training. And people say you know what's the best training I can go to? You know, to develop these skills? And I say all of it, go to all of them.
Eddie Pearson:That's it yeah, go to every course you can go to about anything and everything, and pull the things in that work for you.
David Lyons:You know what I'm saying Because some of us won't be able to do some of the things, but find the things that you can get into your DNA pretty quick and run with them.
Eddie Pearson:Well, we have the polygraph interns and I tell them I said you need to watch me do a criminal test, you need to watch this examiner do a criminal test. I'm going to take you up to the Kentucky State Police. Marvin Hayden is up there, who's an outstanding examiner.
David Lyons:I miss Marvin.
Eddie Pearson:Yeah, he's a great guy Watch Marvin do a test, Take all that information you got and you develop your own toolbox and you use those tools. That's it the way I ask a question you may not like for whatever reason, then don't use it. But you may like it, then don't use it. But you may like it, You're more than welcome to use it. And I tell everybody that when I've talked to detectives I said, and I've been asked to watch some interviews and talk about some training and this and I say, listen, I'll watch it. I got no problems. But if I'm watching David do an interview and David says something that I like, I'm stealing it from.
Eddie Pearson:David, I'm going to take it, and I'm big on cross-training, I'm big on OJT. But the problem about OJT that I don't like is that the person that's training you may not know everything they need to know to train you. So you've got to go back and do a lot of research on your own, watch a lot of videos, read a lot of research papers, attend a lot of schools. Body language is constantly changing. Everybody's body language is a little bit different. Nobody's body language is exactly the same. There are no absolutes. It's just one of those tools that you can use to think the body language changed. I've seen that anchor point movement. I've seen that anchor point movement. I've seen this. I've seen them move forward. I've seen them take a big, deep breath, look up into the left before they answered the question why did that occur? Well, I need to go ask some more questions, yeah, but then you just go back and start digging into it.
Eddie Pearson:Never, stop learning never, never stop and then we'll throw one more zinger on.
David Lyons:that too is the legal ramifications of these methods and how they're applied Exactly. Yeah, I don't want to rabbit hole that, but you've got to know those. You have to know those.
Eddie Pearson:Yeah yeah.
Wendy Lyons:Well, Eddie, thank you so much. You've shared a wealth of knowledge and it's so intriguing. I don't think I took my eyes off of you the entire time, except for when you looked at me and I looked down because I didn't want you to read my mind.
David Lyons:You probably looked in the wrong direction.
Wendy Lyons:I probably looked in the wrong direction, but I tried to keep my feet towards you, yeah. So thank you so much for sharing all this. I'm just blown away at all this stuff, you know.
David Lyons:Likewise, I hate to say, but you know, we worked at the same place for a long time and every time we sit down and do this in retirement, I learn more than I did when we were together, you just feel like Eddie's so much smarter than you, don't you Exactly? No, but the thing is is again the people. I think what our avatar, our audience for the most part, likes this authenticity, and I'm grateful for that.
Wendy Lyons:There's so much out there that people just don't know. Well, they don't know and they don't know what goes into it and the science behind it.
David Lyons:Well, just, Chief Justice John Roberts we're in May of 2025, just a couple of weeks ago, was quoted as saying that we've not I don't think he said it mean we've raised some generations of people that have no idea how the system works, but they're quick to criticize it.
David Lyons:Something that I'm paraphrasing, and I think how we cure that is having people like you lay all of this out, you know. So I again, I think, staying away from the absolutes, making sure people understand these are simply tools. They're not all of that. Don't read too much into it, but don't miss it. Um, the I love the message, too, of growth, of learning. Oh yeah, we all should it. Uh, look how long you've been doing it and you still research, you still research.
Eddie Pearson:When I'm not doing polygraphs, I'm probably reading research papers, I'm looking at YouTube videos, I'm watching other detectives that post stuff on the Internet how they do their interviews, and a lot of times you were saying that, because of the way the rooms are set up physically, this is how you have to do it. I always say never negotiate with a barrier between you and the person.
David Lyons:A hundred percent, but sometimes you can't do that.
Eddie Pearson:Yeah, so you've got to, you've got to do the best you can do. Yeah, so it's, it's.
David Lyons:I did one in New Orleans. Yeah, New Orleans parish prison and a coffee break room for the correction center. Yeah, and well, I don't know. I'm pretty sure, if you went back and pulled the old videotape, that we were talking to this person and you'd have corrections officers come in and make coffee and they would be behind the person I'm talking to and they're like stirring coffee.
Wendy Lyons:Well, let's even get back to. You mentioned Chris. He's talking about distractions. Chris Schoonover went down to interview Tommy Lenzel in a supply closet.
David Lyons:Yes, exactly.
Eddie Pearson:You do, and that's what this game is all about. Hey, you got to do what you got to do, amen, you got to. You know, it's about solving crime and, as crime fighters, investigators, detectives, whatever you want to call us, I mean, we do what we got to do to put the bad people in jail. That's it. So it's you know.
David Lyons:Well, thanks for the educational pitch. Yeah, thank you. I mean thank you for the portrait of George. Oh, you're welcome. If he's not in the shot, I'll make sure I bleed him in real quick, because it's a great picture of that guy too. I'll say one thing I thought I didn't hit it when you talked about the belly button. Can I say this?
Wendy Lyons:It's scary now, aren't you?
David Lyons:No, no horses. Is that when you're riding? Uh, one of those traditional training methods is that the horse will follow your belly button. Oh really, yeah, it's. It's not all reins and pulling and everything, but it's the subtle rotation of your body, the shift of your and most of your better equine instructors feel yeah, so it's funny because, like an instructor will tell you, point your belly button where you want to go, and so again we go back to that thing. How most of this is so innate.
David Lyons:It's just creatures. Right, it's incredible. But when you're riding, that's it. It's not just pulling somebody, it's rotating that body and the horse feels that.
Eddie Pearson:Isn't that crazy? Yeah, I didn't know that.
Wendy Lyons:We taught Eddie something today. Exactly, I don't know that we taught Eddie something today Exactly.
Eddie Pearson:I don't know anything about a horse.
David Lyons:Anyway, we'll go out and I'll saddle him up and throw you on him real quick. He needs a little work. Well, good deal. Thanks again, you're welcome.
Eddie Pearson:Anytime, I'll come back anytime you want. I love talking about this stuff.
David Lyons:I can stay here until 9 o'clock tonight and talk about it.
Eddie Pearson:if we wanted to, I'd have between that point, but good stuff don't blow Eddie's float yeah, exactly, don't ruin his float get permission from my wife, because that's there we go I love talking about this kind of stuff, so anytime you want to talk about it, I'm available good deal.
David Lyons:Maybe one day we'll try to. We haven't done any live work. Maybe one day we'll live stream up and do an event and have people ask be great, that would be.
Eddie Pearson:that was my first live stream event.
David Lyons:We've never done that, so otherwise, thank you. Have a good afternoon.
Eddie Pearson:You're welcome. Thank you very much, I appreciate it.
David Lyons:The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims, so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at MurderPolicePodcastcom, where you will find show notes, transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police Podcast merch store where you can purchase a huge variety of Murder Police Podcast swag. We are also on Facebook, instagram and YouTube, which is closed caption for those that are hearing impaired. Just search for the Murder Police Podcast and you will find us. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review. On Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcasts, make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop, and please tell your friends Lock it down.
David Lyons:Judy.
